“I think hope is getting pretty stomped on at this point. I've seen the same thing and heard all the fun sayings: survive to 25, exist to 26. Someone can coin 27 and win the same prize, which is that just because rates were low doesn't mean they're going to go back to being low. There's not a rule that says that has to happen.”

I didn't see that particular one, but I've seen plenty of negative ones over the past couple of years. And I just don't think there's an easy solution. I mean, it's much different than a sector which I've liked for a long time, which is multifamily, where, look, valuations are tough, but cash flows haven't disappeared. Now, your returns have gotten much, much lower with, you know, whether it's occupancy issues or concessions. There's a number of things that have been headwinds in a way, but you're not losing, say, half the building like you do in office where you're forced to do something as a lender, right? You can't just sit there and watch it go to zero. It actually becomes a negative carry, right? I think in multi, you've seen your, you know, your debt yield or the yield to the lender go down, certainly in some cases, but you can take a little bit more time. I also think you've sorted through at least a decent amount of, you know, everyone's heard about the oversupply in that space. I think it's being chipped through. There's still a long-term need for that product. For me, the uncertainty is what's the timing on it? You know, how quickly does some of that come back before we actually see income growth? What is the rate environment for some of the valuation questions? But the long-term need and fundamentals there, I think you've got a little more safety than anywhere else in the commercial real estate space.

Jerry, what's the overall sentiment in your industry? Because we've gone from generationally low rates in five years to, you know, average historically. But if you just take it on a relative basis, the speed of the change has been so great that I think so many people were caught off guard. And then you had this period where it's like, just wait, wait till 2024, wait till 2025, no, wait till 2026, and things will get better. And rates, you know, we've been, mortgage rates have been above 6% since 2022, essentially, the fall. So it's been a long time. Time now. I'm just curious what the general sentiment is and how people are feeling in the space.

What do the opportunities look like in terms of somebody allocating their portfolio to this? Because right now, treasuries are looking certainly more attractive than they have been in the past, just based on simple arithmetic. What do spreads look like? And what are some of the potential risks associated with the reward?

Yeah, I think comparing treasuries and real estate is always a little bit apples and oranges because treasuries don't appreciate in value and you don't get rent growth on treasuries. And just because treasuries are 5% doesn't mean cap rates should be 5.5%. Like, I don't think that's a perfect one-to-one. I think it's an oversimplification of the reality of the situation, right? A good asset, even if you buy it at the same yield as a treasury and you run it really, really well, there is an expertise in real estate that over a decade, you're going to compound some of those returns because you can do it right. And you've got a hard asset at the end of the day that's worth more than when it started. So I still think there's a very good fundamental argument for real estate, especially if you get, you know, it's a better investment now for inflation than it was before because rents should inflate with everything else, all things being equal. Now, we went through some exceptions to that rule for sure, but on the longer term trend, I think it does end up in the right space. Where I play in credit is a little bit different than that. This is sort of a different spin on that, on how to attack the market. Here, you know, my viewpoint is not an equity viewpoint, which I would say is kind of a seven to 10 year hold. I look at a shorter window. I'm looking at a three to five year investment horizon. So the question is, you know, what can I do in the debt world today relative to that 5% return? In the markets today, let's just use multi because that's where we've done a lot of invest in. And that's the ability of taking the mortgage we make, you lever that mortgage and you get a total return in that range. It's a shorter duration, right, than your typical real estate hold, but the return is still quite high. And you've, and that takes advantage of, one, you've got a base rate that just moved up, which is helpful to us. But two, you still have very competitive capital markets. And that means the cost of debt that you're using on the back end there has compressed as well. You put those two things together. It's a very interesting return and you get a nice cushion in the market. That's that's still pretty tough to beat. Now, the long term holds a different viewpoint, but short term, I think I'm still heavily in favor of the credit approach here.

That credit, that makes sense to me because you're acting as the lender, essentially, right? And yields are higher. That increases your return. How much competition is there to be the lender today? Because maybe there's not as much activity. Like, how hard is that for you? Like, how much does scale matter in that space?