Things Tom Matzzie Has Said on Podcasts

“There's difference between agreement and popularity, and people confuse those two things. What we have is agreement with people. The iPhone is popular… for most Americans they want their lights to work and they want their bill to be, you know, moderate and, you know, they don't want dirty skies and dirty water and we can deliver all those things, but we're still not delivering 3,000 songs in their pocket and social media. Like we're not popular.” — Tom Matzzie, Volts

David Roberts closed by saying the clean-energy industry has leaned too long on being liked. Matzzie adds that polling support for solar and wind is agreement, not popularity, and that agreement alone doesn't build political power.

Volts · 2026-10-28 Permalink → Listen →

Volts Around 1:04:13 into the episode

Tom Matzzie

be a u.s person or a u.s corporation no foreign money and yeah i think you have to be 18 has to be your money all the things that normally are part of giving to a political campaign that's the number one thing

David Roberts

…for years for for something like this something like this mythic power which you know involves both fear and attraction i think right as you said and people have been leaning on the attraction part and betting on the attraction part almost solely for many many years now and it's just not working

Tom Matzzie

it's also not sufficiently attractive i just want to note like people talk about how much people like solar and wind and energy storage and all that's true you know there's difference between agreement and popularity yeah and people confuse those two things what we have is agreement with people the iphone is popular right we're not the iphone maybe for you me we're the iphone but like for most americans they want their lights to work and they want their bill to be you know moderate and you know they don't want dirty skies and dirty water and we can deliver all those things but we're still not delivering 3000 songs in their pocket and social media like we're not popular there's a difference

David Roberts

do you think that is an achievable thing for people to care enough about energy period to you know normies to care enough about energy period to really get invested in well

Tom Matzzie

it's an intangible good right that's the thing that's complicated it's not like you can't touch it taste it feel it smell it hold it eat it you know

David Roberts

well i've been wondering like with all the smart appliances and the smart home management moving in and the balcony solar and the evs like there are ways now that energy is bumping up against people's lived experience i just wonder if that's going to amount to anything

Speaker names come from our own diarization. The position is estimated from where the line sits in the episode.

“My theory of change is you need people to perceive you as powerful. The perception actually matters more than anything. The metaphor I use is you have to be a lion and not a gazelle. Plenty of gazelles out there, and they have a wonderful life as gazelles, but no one Fs with the lions.” — Tom Matzzie, Volts

Matzzie helps run a super PAC backed by clean-energy investors that targets members of Congress who voted against the industry. He explains why the group picked noisy, public races: past political spending by the industry was quiet, and he wants lawmakers to see it as powerful.

Volts · 2026-10-28 Permalink → Listen →

Volts Around 01:19 into the episode

Tom Matzzie

Thanks, David. Happy to be here.

David Roberts

…a little pun. Also, the initials of the investment tax credit, which was killed in the aforementioned bill. That's a little Easter egg, a delightful little Easter egg. Tell me quickly the origin story of the ITC PAC. You were not a founder. It came to you already extant. So tell us how it started.

Tom Matzzie

…several months. Because what we wanted at the end of the year was a bunch of reporters to remember that we had done this. And we wanted chiefs of staff and the Congress to remember that we had done this, members of Congress to remember that we'd done this. And, you know, too often, there have been political investments made by the industry in the past, but often it's been quiet, whispering. And my theory of change is you need people to perceive you as powerful. The perception actually matters more than anything. The metaphor I use is you have to be a lion and not a gazelle. Plenty of gazelles out there, and they have a wonderful life as gazelles, but no one Fs with the lions. That's really the plan we put together in the spring was to identify a bunch of races that would help us narrate a story of our ability to invest and defeat members of Congress.

David Roberts

I mean, usually when people come to this, I mean, I've seen a million of these in my lifetime. Usually people are like, we need to tell our story better. They come up with some public relations campaign or some sort of campaign, some sort of lobbying group, some sort of, you know, let's tell our…

Tom Matzzie

Here's what to think about: is often people are telling, they want to tell a story about their issue. We're telling a story about us as an industry, a group of investors, a group of entrepreneurs, about us as people. Are we safe or dangerous? Right. Are we strong or weak? That is the kind of…

David Roberts

I heard on, you were on Suncast and you referred to mythic power. Mythic

Speaker names come from our own diarization. The position is estimated from where the line sits in the episode.

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