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Florence Hazrat

Things Florence Says on Podcasts

Where to Find Them

Florence Hazrat writes You Are Not So Smart . They have also been a guest on Because Language - a podcast about linguistics, the science of language. .

Recently: “148: On the Mark (with Florence Hazrat)” on Because Language - a podcast about linguistics, the science of language. (October 2026); “278 - An Admirable Point - Florence Hazrat” on You Are Not So Smart (January 2024).

What They Said

“You open up this potential to gain knowledge and power and money and all of these development kind of things. You give access to that to foreigners, to women, to young people, to people who are maybe of a lower social class, who haven't had these long years of education. So punctuation has always been a way to democratize, and then also has been in danger of being locked up because of that power.” — Florence Hazrat, Because Language - a podcast about linguistics, the science of language.

Asked whether punctuation was a democratising force, the historian traced it to Alexandrian librarians marking Greek for non-native readers, Irish monks glossing Latin, and 19th-century Egyptian writers importing European punctuation to make Arabic easier to read.

Because Language - a podcast about linguistics, the science of language. · 2026-10-11 Permalink → Listen →
Because Language - a podcast about linguistics, the science of language. Around 1:22:24 into the episode
Speaker 1

fair to say that that change was also a part of like democratizing writing? Because one of the things when you read everything in a long line is you have to have training and stuff on like how words are spelled and what's likely to be a boundary and all this common knowledge, which if you only

Speaker 2

have a few people in your population who can read and write and they're specialists in it, they have all this like mountain of expertise. But if you want lots of people to read, it's hard to build up that expertise maybe among everyone. So would you say that punctuation is like a

Speaker 3

democratizing force? Yes, absolutely. And we see that really throughout this entire history of punctuation, there always came from an impulse to make writing more accessible. And that might be ancient or like Greek influenced Egypt. You know, this library in Alexandria that might be Ireland in the 8th century or that might be Egypt in the 19th century. So there's always this impulse to make writing more accessible and understandable for a larger amount of people. In Greece or in Alexandria, it was the librarians who tried to develop this point system, this, you know, or dot system for learners or for readers of their manuscripts who were not native speakers of Greek. And then we have the monks who Are themselves speaking Gaelic, so they're like Irish, and they are translating the Bible from Latin into Gaelic, or like they were copying the Bible and then they were trying to figure out, okay, which does this word mean in Gaelic, and they were kind of copying it above the Latin. And so, again, these are learners that try to get access to something. In 19th century Egypt, people are like the Egyptian elite or Arab writers saw Arabic not being used so much for more mundane day-to-day…

Speaker 1

a very interesting perspective. Yeah, who would want women to read and write? It's

Speaker 3

terrible idea.

Speaker 2

And, you know, if we're talking about punctuation being political, we can point to hyphens. We had a chat quite a while ago with Dr. Pardas Madavi, University of Arizona, about her book, Hyphen. And like you do in On the Mark, she mentions the hyphen as a signifier of identity, but also it's…

Speaker names from our own diarization · position estimated from where the line sits in the episode
“I think it's a huge problem that we are losing the notion of the paragraph… Traditionally, a thought is longer than a single sentence, right? Like, what can we say in a single sentence? And so I would be worried now that… we are losing the capacity to produce a unit of thought in language.” — Florence Hazrat, Because Language - a podcast about linguistics, the science of language.

The punctuation historian was asked how digital writing is changing punctuation. She pointed to news sites that put a paragraph break after every sentence so text reads well on phones, and noted that the paragraph is one of the oldest forms of punctuation.

Because Language - a podcast about linguistics, the science of language. · 2026-10-11 Permalink → Listen →
Because Language - a podcast about linguistics, the science of language. Around 1:28:39 into the episode
Speaker 4

yeah, that

Speaker 2

…not. We just do all kinds of writing that isn't formal at all. And of course, I guess that means we should expect to see some punctuation get shed. You mentioned the abruptness of the full stop. Are there any other ways that you can identify where digital communication is changing punctuation?

Speaker 3

…But the paragraph actually is one of the oldest, if not the oldest, mark of punctuation or phenomenon of punctuation. It's not a mark as such, right? Like a full stop or comma, but it's part of dividing text. And what is a paragraph? Is it an idea? Is it a thought? What is an idea? What is a thought? What is a couple of things hanging together in a language, right? Or in a text or something. So traditionally, a thought is longer than a single sentence, right? Like, what can we say in a single sentence? And so I would be worried now that people are losing the ability to create proper, like proper. Now I'm using these pejorative words myself. Can't get away from it. Yeah, can't get away from it. That we are losing the capacity to produce a unit of thought in language. And as long as we still write essays, for example, or we write longer text, that's not going to be a problem. But if someone was only texting or was only…

Speaker 4

think I sometimes forget, because I have a job that includes using a computer, and I'm of the kind of like European millennial generation where, for example, big purchases go on big screens. Like I don't buy flights on my phone. That's incredibly weird to me, or like anything expensive. Like you…

Speaker 2

I remember when I decided I didn't need a desktop computer anymore and I've just been doing things on laptops, but even that for some people is a bit too much. Wow. The thing that I was going to go to was people avoiding M dashes. I'm a big M dash user and people are avoiding them because they…

Speaker 3

Oh, really? Oh, wow. Maybe, you know, you should also avoid words like honestly, you know, honestly, comma. Delves. That's a good idea. Exactly. Yes, yes. So it's like a combination of markers. But it is true. I mean, some people say that's AI doesn't use these M dashes, but in very few…

Speaker names from our own diarization · position estimated from where the line sits in the episode