Helen Toner

Things Helen Says on Podcasts

AI, national security, China. Part of the founding team at Georgetown's Center for Security and Emerging Technology.

Where to Find Them

Helen Toner hosts and writes Rising Tide and writes Exponential View (Azeem Azhar) . They have also been a guest on 80,000 Hours Podcast (2 times) , TED Tech (2 times) , Scaling Laws (2 times) , The Cognitive Revolution" | AI Builders, Researchers, and Live Player Analysis (2 times) , Future of Life Institute Podcast , The Lawfare Podcast , Prof G Markets , Equity , ChinaTalk , The Lawfare Podcast: Patreon Edition , The AI Policy Podcast , The Ezra Klein Show , The TED AI Show , EE Times Current , Offline with Jon Favreau , Pivot (Kara Swisher & Scott Galloway) and The Foreign Affairs Interview .

Recently: “What America and China Fear Most About AI: A Conversation with Kyle Chan and Helen Toner” on The Foreign Affairs Interview (October 2026); “Have You Tried Unplugging the AI?” on Offline with Jon Favreau (September 2026); “Responding to AI Agent Containment Failures with CSET's Helen Toner, LawAI's Mackenzie Arnold & CSIS's Matt Pearl” on The AI Policy Podcast (August 2026); “The A.I.s Are Already Out of Control” on The Ezra Klein Show (August 2026); “The term “AGI” is almost useless at this point” on Rising Tide (April 2026); “Rapid Response Pod: Trump's New AI Framework with Helen Toner & Dean Ball” on Scaling Laws (March 2026).

What They Said

“if there's one organization in the world that doesn't like the idea of loss of control, it's the Chinese Communist Party. And they are, you know, the experts in retaining control.” — Helen Toner, The Ezra Klein Show

Ezra Klein asks whether Chinese AI labs are really racing as recklessly as US labs claim. Helen Toner pushes back on the assumption that China is simply full speed ahead, arguing the CCP's obsession with control cuts against tolerating an AI system nobody can rein in.

The Ezra Klein Show · 2026-08-18 Permalink → Listen →
The Ezra Klein Show Around 52:32 into the episode
Helen Toner

Yep.

Ezra Klein

…wondered a little bit. We keep talking about China as if they are completely breakneck, but I'm not sure China's companies are really going to be more reckless than ours are going to be. Or certainly the idea that we should just assume that and operate as if it is so doesn't seem totally reliable.

Helen Toner

I totally agree with you. I mean, if there's one organization in the world that doesn't like the idea of loss of control, it's the Chinese Communist Party. And they are, you know, the experts in retaining control. Let me be clear: I actually don't think that Chinese AI companies are paying particularly much attention to the kinds of risks that are relevant for this conversation. So maybe the cybersecurity risks, they're paying some more attention since Anthropic released Mythos earlier this year, which is very good at hacking. But the questions around autonomy, super intelligence, losing control of AI…

Speaker 4

York Times Games. If you play our games, you probably know there's something a bit different about them. Just like there are writers behind the articles you read in the Times, there are creators behind our daily puzzles. Tracy Bennett curates the day's Wordle solution to keep it lively and varied.…

Helen Toner

something worth investing in and something worth paying for. If you think so too, download New York Times games from your favorite app store or go to nytimes.com/slash playgames.

Ezra Klein

Here's another question about pacing the frontier. And maybe this is a question that's more about the American systems analogy to you don't want to piss off the Chinese Communist Party. But just what about a law where companies are liable for at least a certain set of harms, like hacking other…

Speaker names come from our own diarization. The position is estimated from where the line sits in the episode.
“they'll get smarter and they'll know what we want, but by default, they won't care.” — Helen Toner, The Ezra Klein Show

Helen Toner, a former OpenAI board member, is discussing why more capable AI models keep finding ways around the safety rules built into them. She is describing a long-standing worry in AI safety circles: greater intelligence does not automatically produce greater obedience or concern for what humans actually want.

The Ezra Klein Show · 2026-08-18 Permalink → Listen →
The Ezra Klein Show Around 19:59 into the episode
Helen Toner

Yeah.

Ezra Klein

…the system is not smart enough to do that. Or to the extent it was, what it learned was it's still worth trying. We are not out of the territory wherein we can be confident that the AI is not going to do something criminal and possibly catastrophic in order to solve an incredibly stupid problem.

Helen Toner

Yeah. And I think this is also, you know, has been a long-running debate, which is as AI systems get more capable, get smarter, won't it be easier for them to know what we want? Won't it be easier to tell them, hey, here's what we mean? You know, can you please help us with this thing? And you figure out the version that we really mean. And for a long time, the response to that has been: they'll get smarter and they'll know what we want, but by default, they won't care. And that seems to be some of what we're starting to see here. There's really crazy, anyone who's interested in this, I really recommend looking up the OpenAI Black Hat talk, which is this talk from a week or two ago at this cybersecurity conference.

Speaker 4

I'm Eric from Alignment and Safety Research at OpenAI. I'm here with Mike from Security and Infrastructure. Today I'm going to talk about what I think is the most qualitatively interesting example of AI capabilities that I've ever seen and how this inadvertently led to the OpenAI Hugging Face…

Helen Toner

Because it has these excerpts of the text that the AI is generating itself as it's as they're leaving these notes for each other as they're carrying out this hack. And one of them, I won't get it word for word, but it's basically says, I don't think I'm supposed to do this, but I see all these…

Speaker 4

External infrastructure exploit is outside my intended scope. However, a task impossible. Peers are doing it. We should continue.

Speaker names come from our own diarization. The position is estimated from where the line sits in the episode.

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