“I don't think alcohol is just a byproduct of fermentation. I think it's an essential part of wine's appeal. And it's certainly a big part of what makes wine enjoyable to me.”

you think that's going to happen?

…And I think what we're tasting now is significantly better than anything to date. And that, you know, is seriously exciting. And I'd call it now, I'm going to call it, we're at the inflection point where non-alcoholic wine has arrived as a credible entity. The game has officially changed.

Yeah, and I think that's very honest of you to say. And I'm sure there's lots of people who would agree with you. You know, that buzz, the gentle escapism, the loss of inhibition that enables conviviality and fun and yeah, sometimes silliness. You know, we all benefit from it as human beings, even…

And going one step further, I think, though, the Holy Grail might be genuinely effective functional non-alcoholic wine where you have some kind of clever chemistry or natural ingredient which you can add to non-ALK wine that gives you a bit of a buzz and a loss of inhibition, as you said, but which…

I mean