“The Clean Water Act streamlining is extremely painful. That is a straight give to the fossil fuel industry, and it's a give in response to effective organizing, frankly. But are those laws the tools we need to solve the climate crisis? They're not. We never set out to go permit by permit forever.”

That's a really hard one. I literally have had nightmares about pipelines. I'm going to be honest. More gas pipelines probably will come in the next couple of years. The Clean Water Act streamlining is extremely painful. That is a straight give to the fossil fuel industry. And it's a give in response to effective organizing, frankly. But are those bills the tools we need to solve the climate crisis? They're not. They're just not. I think we've been effective at using them, but the climate crisis is getting worse. And we never set out to go permit by permit forever when I started working on Keystone XL in 2010. We wanted to stop as many horrible projects as we can and stand hand in hand with frontline allies like the First Nations people in Canada and the Appalachian people in the mountains of North Carolina and build up a movement that was strong enough to elect leaders who would pass comprehensive policy that would more systematically get us off of fossil fuels. At the time, I thought that was maybe going to be cap and trade. I maybe thought that was going to be another carbon…