“What we're seeing in Brazil is actually the opposite, right? Where in other countries, developers and technology companies look for the energy. In Brazil, the energy looks for the data centers.”

That's a good question. So I would say we have pockets of resistance, like where data centers are coming up, communities are starting to mobilize. But it's already an evolution of what was happening before, because the first big example of resistance or pushback we have in Brazil is in the Northeast, the indigenous community against the TikTok data center. And that only happened because journalism covered the story, right? I did the story. So we were able to tell the community: look, a data center is coming. This is what it means. What we're seeing now is in places where there still hasn't been any media coverage, the community is already creating this shared understanding that, you know, this is something we should pay attention to. This is something we should mobilize. So, for example, there's a city here in the countryside of Sao Paulo State called Pinda Moña Angraba. The community there learned about the data center through a city hall announcement. There was a press release on the website, and they started mobilizing. They reached out to people who were doing this type of resistance in other places. And, you know, this has started to grow. In fact, they have a big event coming up this weekend, like to share what they have learned about it. So that's a case where journalism didn't really need to play a part in the sense that they weren't the ones to break the story. So this has happened in some other places. People reached out to me, like, oh, I'm seeing a data center in my city. What should I do? So I think it's become more spontaneous. What has happened on the national level, I think, is what I call like social media activism. You know, like people have realized data centers aren't the big promise that they were supposed to be. And again, this is really based on what is happening in the U.S. The news does reach Brazil. Like we, you know, have translated stories about people who have seen their utility bills rise or people whose water supply has changed colors because of data centers, the noise pollution, et cetera. This is reaching Brazil. So I think based on this, people have formed this understanding that data centers are something we should push back. So on the pop culture side of it, we're starting to see memes in Portuguese about data centers. And I think that's a good value of like, okay, people now understand, right? I would say it's still very limited to a progressive, environmentally concerned share of society, but it is happening. And I think people are starting to speak more and more in their friendly family circles about it. Yesterday, one of my friends said, oh, today my English class, my teacher, spoke about data centers, and she actually used one of your stories. You know, this is a person totally disconnected from me. So I think it goes to show that people are starting to create awareness. It's still nothing compared to what is happening in the US, but I also think that's explained by the fact that the data centers aren't really here yet. They're not fully ready. So I think once people start to see that, And I think it's very physical, right? Once you see it, you listen to it, I expect things to pick up a bit.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I feel like, you know, when I look at Canada, where I am, there was not a lot of attention paid on data centers until we started to have a lot of proposals of like really big projects. And of course, we were also seeing what was happening in the United States. So there's certainly that kind of like learning from their experience and then knowing what is coming for us in a way that I'm sure is happening in Brazil as well. And so I want to move on to the model of data centers in Brazil, because to me, this feels really unique. Like it's not something that I feel like I have seen in other jurisdictions where it feels like the data centers in many cases are being proposed by renewable energy companies, right? And are very dependent on renewable power in the Northeast in particular. Can you talk to us about what we're seeing on that front in Brazil and how it might be different than in other jurisdictions?

Absolutely. And I think that you've given us so much to dig into there. Like a fantastic oversight of what is going on in Brazil and how it's like fascinating, but also a bit convoluted in different ways. And I want to dig into some different pieces of that. Like, obviously, the first thing that really stands out to me is how in Brazil, I feel like we have the opposite problem that we see in so many other parts of the world over seeing data centers be built out where there you have a surplus of renewable energy that is being used for data centers. And I feel like when we look at parts of the United States or say in Alberta up here in Canada, there's a surplus of natural gas and they are looking for markets for gas. And so data centers become, as you're saying, for the renewable operators down in Brazil, they become the reliable operators that are going to need a reliable, large supply of gas in order to power their data centers. And in Brazil, it's the renewables that are stepping in to do that, which seems like, I don't know, fascinating to see the difference in those two scenarios, you know.

Yeah, yeah, I think it's super interesting. And in some ways, it complicates the discussion, right? Because it seems that like Brazilians don't really have a right to complain because we've had it so much better. But actually, it's still, you know, I'm not trying to classify who's like in a worse position or not, but it's still also very complicated. And I think the big discussion, it's not, it shouldn't be restricted to Brazil because, you know, it's in everyone's best interest that the world uses less fossil fuels. So I think we should think like, is this the best use that we want to make for Brazil's renewable energy? Being Brazil is such a big country and such a big neighbor also in the region. Like what happens in Brazil impacts the rest of the countries, although we're now surrounded by right-wing governments. That's also interesting. But it's a complicated discussion. And as you mentioned the natural gas sector, it's funny because after Lula sanctioned the law, they started pressuring the government because they also want in. Want a little share of this new market, right? So they're trying to change or like amend the law to include the possibility to use natural gas. Of course, again, the saying, you know, like you give the hand, they want the whole arm.

Of course, yeah, it's not a surprise at all that they would do that. But it's so frustrating to see. I guess, I guess, the data centers up in the northeast will be powered by renewables, and then the ones like down in the south will be powered by gas or something like that.