“We have a version of what we've done with climate, which is feel really good about ourselves, reducing our own production, our own emissions in the UK. But actually, we continue to consume all the same embedded carbon. So it's just that China's polluting on our behalf… And the same would be true if you drove all the sheep off the hills of the Lake District and continued to buy lots of lamb and eat it in Britain… you're just forcing some other country, Argentina or New Zealand, to wreck their landscape so that we can eat the lamb.”

…very, very aggressive towards it because it's taking two grouse a day actually quite enjoy it and point it out to you. And I think there's, look, there's an endless struggle all the time to renegotiate what works and what doesn't. I suspect you'll probably win your wildcat discussion eventually.

Well, on wildcats specifically, it has worked. So the Scottish Government has, it is under, by the way, it's enormously expensive. The wildcats I was told recently have cost £200,000 on average per wildcat that's been released. Although, of course, a lot of that's invested in facilities and these.

So I think you make a really good point on cost. It's patently absurd that it's cost in the hundreds of thousands per wildcat that have been very successfully released in the Kangorms. But the reason for that is largely because of inertia and bureaucracy. And the fact that the agencies of…

Ben, but look, can I interrupt, Ben? Because this is partly about being a mature democracy. I mean, one of the reasons why African parks can move animals around is that it's very, very difficult for people living in extreme poverty in sub-Saharan Africa to object. They will have very strong…

Sure, but those two examples you used, I don't think, fit in a way because overwhelmingly the public wants these things back. Maureen Common did some polling for the National Trust that showed that in excess of 80% of voters across the political spectrum want these things back.