KM

Kevin Martin

Things Kevin Says on Podcasts

“Type one fun is like going to the ice cream shop. It's enjoyable the entire time, but there's no lasting memory of it until you go to the next ice cream shop. Type two fun is something where it sucks in the moment. You're soaking wet, and you think, this is terrible, I'm never doing this again. And then when you get home and think back on it, you had this positive, life-changing experience.” — Kevin Martin, Data Engineering Central “I had Claude build me an app to track what I'm eating. In five minutes I put it together, and I've used it for multiple weeks now. That's incredible. On the other hand, I do think it's resulting in mass quantities of garbage everywhere. We went from unlimited information to like five times the information, and the quality is going down like crazy.” — Kevin Martin, Data Engineering Central “I asked myself, do I actually want to climb Denali or do I just want to be the person who can tell the world I'm the guy that climbed Denali? And I realized I don't actually want to do that. It took me a long time to wrestle with, because that was an ego decision, not something I actually wanted to do.” — Kevin Martin, Data Engineering Central “My dad's generation had the same company for 40 years and a pension and a gold watch on the way out. My generation was more about finding the right company to get into, and if you got the right one, like I got in with Apple, you could still make it. It feels like we're now in version 3.0, where you don't have that anymore. Even if you're at Microsoft or Facebook, it's not a safe job anymore. Everyone is their own free agent.” — Kevin Martin, Data Engineering Central “I feel like in the big Fortune 500 world, it's just slop: people are creating more and more garbage and more and more busy work, and nothing is actually getting done. So whenever I see a big company lay off 10,000 people because of AI, I'm like, is that real? Or is that a financial move?” — Kevin Martin, Data Engineering Central “Square, Jack Dorsey's company, laid off like 25% of their staff. He mentioned it was because of AI. And the stock went up 25% after hours. So I feel like what's actually happening is a lot of these big tech companies way overhired during COVID. They're super bloated. A lot of the people there aren't actually doing anything. And there's a free out now: you can get rid of the fat and fire people and say it's AI-driven and the stock's going to go up.” — Kevin Martin, Data Engineering Central

Where to Find Them

Kevin Martin has been a guest on Data Engineering Central .

Recently: “Life After Big Tech” on Data Engineering Central (November 2026).

What They Said

“Type one fun is like going to the ice cream shop. It's enjoyable the entire time, but there's no lasting memory of it until you go to the next ice cream shop. Type two fun is something where it sucks in the moment. You're soaking wet, and you think, this is terrible, I'm never doing this again. And then when you get home and think back on it, you had this positive, life-changing experience.” — Kevin Martin, Data Engineering Central

Asked to explain 'type two fun' and how it applies to tech workers, Kevin says he first heard the idea from guides on a mountain climb.

Data Engineering Central · 2026-11-04 Permalink → Listen →
Data Engineering Central
Kevin Martin

…So I would say most people had never done more than a weekend of backpacking. So it's like a pretty big to go from a three-day trip to a three-week trip, but they were enjoying it. But yeah, I met so many cool people from all over the world, all sorts of ages. Yeah, it was just super enjoyable.

Dan Beach

Talk about that type two fun that you talked about because I feel like, especially even now in the workplace with everything that's going on, it's very applicable to probably the life stage of a lot of tech people.

Kevin Martin

Yeah. And I think this is one of the good things about getting outdoors and having uncomfortable experiences is it makes your normal life a lot easier when you realize, hey, this isn't a real problem. Like this is right. This email is not a crisis. This is a work email that I'm going to forget about in two weeks. So type two fun. I learned about this in 2016. I climbed Mount Rainier, and my guides on Rainier told us about type two fun. And the way they described it was that type one fun is like going to the ice cream shop. You just love it. It's enjoyable the entire time, but you forget about it and there's no lasting memory of it until you go to the next ice cream shop. Type two fun is something where it sucks in the moments. You're out there, you're soaking wet, your rain jacket wets out, and you're like, this is terrible. I'm never doing this ever again. And then when you get home, you think back on it, but when you think back on it, you had this positive, life-changing experience where you remember, hey, we were huddling in the tent with the two other guys and we're all soaked. And it was like, you remember it, like the silver lining of it. And then you do it again.…

Dan Beach

hungry. You're hungry. You're tired.

Kevin Martin

So a lot of this is a little bit of suffering in the moments. So I think it's good to go through that. It's good to have these like micro doses of suffering. And then when you get back to the real world and your boss makes a comment that you don't like or whatever, it's like, it's not that big of a…

Dan Beach

go for a run, whatever. Yeah. I don't know how many times in my life I've been like, you know, 300 feet from the top of the pass and you're just like, you're packed. You just want to lay down. You're packs heavy. You're just like, why did I ever say I'd come out here, this people, and climb this?…

Speaker names come from our own diarization. The position is estimated from where the line sits in the episode.
“I had Claude build me an app to track what I'm eating. In five minutes I put it together, and I've used it for multiple weeks now. That's incredible. On the other hand, I do think it's resulting in mass quantities of garbage everywhere. We went from unlimited information to like five times the information, and the quality is going down like crazy.” — Kevin Martin, Data Engineering Central

Asked whether he is bullish or bearish on AI, Kevin, a non-technical heavy user, describes both the personal-software upside and the flood of low-quality content.

Data Engineering Central · 2026-11-04 Permalink → Listen →
Data Engineering Central
Kevin Martin

…So me and that dude hiked for a day. And then we were like, We got to get out of here because they got like 60 mile an hour winds. And but yeah, I've mostly completed what I want to complete for the year, but I have one more that I want to take advantage of like during peak fall foliage seasons.

Dan Beach

…it. I'm just curious. I always try to get people's thoughts on AI. Are you like just generally bullish on it? Are you kind of like mad? Do you not like it? You're like, it's okay. I'm going to use it. How it helps me? Does it bother you? I'm just curious where you said about it. Just generally. So

Kevin Martin

I use AI in my personal life like all day, every day. So I'm like, I'm in the rabbit hole for sure. However, I'm not technical. So like you would know way more. I'm not an expert on this stuff. Like I just, I have Gemini and Claude and I use that kind of all day. In terms of my view on AI, like when it first, like in the 2023 timeframe, I wanted to become like the expert on it. And then I realized that's just a losing battle. No one, like, it's just changing too fast. And like, I kind of just get sick of hearing about it. I view it as the way that it's like amazing in some sense of the word that it's like you can do some incredible things immediately. Like I have a certain kind of way I'm eating and I'm tracking like certain kinds of foods. And I had Claude build me an app that I could just track it immediately. Like in five minutes, I was able to put this thing together and I've used it for multiple weeks now. Like that's incredible. In the past, I would have been paying like, you know, eight bucks a month in the app store or whatever. So on the one hand, it's amazing. On the other hand, it's just like, I do think it's just…

Dan Beach

Yeah, for sure. It's, I mean, it's nice to have, I use it every day too. And it's like, even in the woods, like, what is this tree? You know, there's been like, what is this tree again? Or like, can I eat that mushroom? I probably shouldn't ask you that, but yeah. But it's like helpful, but it is…

Kevin Martin

I think my hot take on it, just from like a layman's perspective, is I think most of what's most. What we hear right now is just hype.

Dan Beach

Yeah, for sure.

Speaker names come from our own diarization. The position is estimated from where the line sits in the episode.
“I asked myself, do I actually want to climb Denali or do I just want to be the person who can tell the world I'm the guy that climbed Denali? And I realized I don't actually want to do that. It took me a long time to wrestle with, because that was an ego decision, not something I actually wanted to do.” — Kevin Martin, Data Engineering Central

Asked about next year's plans, Kevin says he looked up the daily reality of a Denali expedition and dropped the long-held goal. He is now picking trips for what he enjoys rather than for bragging rights.

Data Engineering Central · 2026-11-04 Permalink → Listen →
Data Engineering Central
Kevin Martin

I'll walk you through my entire, I'll walk you through the entire thing. So my typical high-performer self, I wanted to climb. Denali since I was 20.

Dan Beach

Sure.

Kevin Martin

And I told myself, by the time I'm 40, I'm going to climb Denali. And I decided, like, hey, this is the year I'm going to do it. I have the time. It is a big deal. But I actually looked into what is the actual day-to-day life of a person that's climbing Denali. Like, what does this look like? And the reality is, you're carrying 150 pounds on your back, including a sled. You're hiking 10 hours a day. You get to your tent. It's going to be sub-zero the entire time. You're going to get to your tent. You're going to spend an hour and a half digging a place to put your tent. And then you're going to melt water for two hours. And then you're going to go to bed. You're going to likely get stuck in your tent for a week at a time with blizzards. There's a 50% success rate. It costs, it's going to cost me about $20,000 or $25,000. And it's the deadliest year this year in the past quarter of history. And I asked myself, do I actually want to climb Denali or do I just want to be the person to be able to tell the world I'm the guy that climbed Denali? And I realized I don't actually want to do…

Dan Beach

That's awesome. Which section of the AT would that be? Like which state? Now I'm

Kevin Martin

about 30 miles south of Damascus, Virginia. So I would do most of basically Virginia.

Dan Beach

Okay. Yeah, if you do the 14ers, I went through a kick of 14ers too when I was in college, but if you go get Capital Peak for me, I failed that one. You failed, okay. If you could give it a little check for me, that would be nice.

Speaker names come from our own diarization. The position is estimated from where the line sits in the episode.
“My dad's generation had the same company for 40 years and a pension and a gold watch on the way out. My generation was more about finding the right company to get into, and if you got the right one, like I got in with Apple, you could still make it. It feels like we're now in version 3.0, where you don't have that anymore. Even if you're at Microsoft or Facebook, it's not a safe job anymore. Everyone is their own free agent.” — Kevin Martin, Data Engineering Central

The host said the era of long, stable careers feels over as tech companies cut staff. Kevin lays out three generations of job security.

Data Engineering Central · 2026-11-04 Permalink → Listen →
Data Engineering Central
Kevin Martin

…people do without even realizing. And it's just, it's been super interesting for me to be on the outside and look in and kind of like I'm on the outside of a fish tank looking at what people are doing. And a lot of it's self-induced and then a lot of it is the just the crazy world that we live in.

Dan Beach

…really like forefront now that the financial expectations of, you know, maybe we should approach things a little bit differently. You know, people who've never heard of emergency funds are probably like Googling it. It's probably like the number one Google thing probably in the last, you know.

Kevin Martin

I was actually thinking about this the other day. So like my dad's generation, same as yours, you know, he had the same company for 40 years and he gets a pension and a gold watch his way out. And then my generation, I feel like it was in the same with you. It's like, I feel like it was more about finding the right company that you could get in. And if you got the right Right company, like I got in with Apple, like you could make it still. And it feels like we're now in like version 3.0 where you don't have that anymore. And even if you are at the Microsoft or Facebook or whatever, like it's not a safe job anymore. And it's kind of like we're seeing this movement to everyone is their own free agent. And at any time, you might need to deploy that free agency, whether it's your choice or not.

Dan Beach

Yeah, it almost seems like some of those big tech companies now are almost more unit, almost feels like they're more unsafe than like the maybe a little star. I don't know if that's true or not, but it almost seems like it flops so much that like I would be surprised if someone like wanted to work…

Kevin Martin

And the craziest thing now, and I had the light bulb moment. I don't know if you remember this, but Square, Jack Dorsey's company, they laid off like 25% of their staff. He mentioned it was because of AI and all that. And the stock went up 25% after hours. So I feel like what's actually happening…

Dan Beach

Sure. Yeah. I totally agree. It's a weird world and strange world. And yeah, it's definitely changed. I think

Speaker names come from our own diarization. The position is estimated from where the line sits in the episode.
“I feel like in the big Fortune 500 world, it's just slop: people are creating more and more garbage and more and more busy work, and nothing is actually getting done. So whenever I see a big company lay off 10,000 people because of AI, I'm like, is that real? Or is that a financial move?” — Kevin Martin, Data Engineering Central

Kevin gives his 'hot take' on AI from the perspective of a non-technical daily user, saying most of what we hear is hype. The host agrees that big-company AI layoffs are mostly a financial move.

Data Engineering Central · 2026-11-04 Permalink → Listen →
Data Engineering Central
Kevin Martin

I think my hot take on it, just from like a layman's perspective, is I think most of what's most. What we hear right now is just hype.

Dan Beach

Yeah, for sure.

Kevin Martin

Like you hear that all white-collar jobs are going to be gone in six months, whatever, whatever. I feel like there are a small percentage of like entrepreneurs and maybe small, small startup kind of companies that are like actually using AI and like replacing people and like crushing it. But I feel like in the big Fortune 500 world, it's just slop that people are just creating more and more garbage and creating more and more busy work that nothing is actually getting done. So whenever I see a big company lays off 10,000 people because of AI, I'm like, is that real? Or is that a financial move? And it's

Dan Beach

correct. I believe it's a financial move. Yeah, for sure. It seems to be most of the people I've talked to in interview. It's kind of like, yeah, it seems like most people understand that. It's like, it's just a perfect storm and they're using that as an excuse probably to

Kevin Martin

saying that in 2026. Like in three years, it could be completely taken over the world. I would not be shocked by that.

Dan Beach

Yeah. It's interesting here, not that far from me to the south. We've got a bunch of data centers here in the Midwest and certain, you know, for obvious reasons because we have a lot of windmills, like we got wind power and the land is compared to the East or West Coast, our land is cheaper, right?…

Speaker names come from our own diarization. The position is estimated from where the line sits in the episode.
“Square, Jack Dorsey's company, laid off like 25% of their staff. He mentioned it was because of AI. And the stock went up 25% after hours. So I feel like what's actually happening is a lot of these big tech companies way overhired during COVID. They're super bloated. A lot of the people there aren't actually doing anything. And there's a free out now: you can get rid of the fat and fire people and say it's AI-driven and the stock's going to go up.” — Kevin Martin, Data Engineering Central

Kevin, who left Apple after nearly 13 years, gives his theory of why big companies attribute layoffs to AI. The Square figures are his recollection, not checked numbers.

Data Engineering Central · 2026-11-04 Permalink → Listen →
Data Engineering Central
Kevin Martin

…don't have that anymore. And even if you are at the Microsoft or Facebook or whatever, like it's not a safe job anymore. And it's kind of like we're seeing this movement to everyone is their own free agent. And at any time, you might need to deploy that free agency, whether it's your choice or not.

Dan Beach

…if that's true or not, but it almost seems like it flops so much that like I would be surprised if someone like wanted to work at Meta or something, right? Just like reading the news or Amazon and be like, what if they hire me and fire me like in three weeks? Because that could probably happen.

Kevin Martin

And the craziest thing now, and I had the light bulb moment. I don't know if you remember this, but Square, Jack Dorsey's company, they laid off like 25% of their staff. He mentioned it was because of AI and all that. And the stock went up 25% after hours. So I feel like what's actually happening is a lot of these big tech companies way overhired during COVID, the COVID time. They're super bloated. A lot of the people there aren't actually doing anything. And there's a free out now. Like you can get rid of fat and fire people basically and say it's AI driven and the stock's going to go up. So to the actual employee, like you, you've, no one is safe. Like nobody is safe.

Dan Beach

Sure. Yeah. I totally agree. It's a weird world and strange world. And yeah, it's definitely changed. I think

Kevin Martin

it happened quick. Like talking about these big tech companies, like man, in 2022 and 2023, the big tech stocks were doubling and tripling. That was the place to be. And that was two years ago. So you got to adapt.

Dan Beach

That's crazy. Tell people. Neither of us are financial advisors. And this is like skipping ahead a little bit, but what would you somebody's like watching this, someone working in tech and they're sweating and going to bed every night. If you were going to give them like five bullet points of like…

Speaker names come from our own diarization. The position is estimated from where the line sits in the episode.

Collections They Appear In

Software Engineering & Infra