NK

Nick Kokonas

Things Nick Says on Podcasts

Where to Find Them

Nick Kokonas has been a guest on Invest Like the Best (Patrick O'Shaughnessy) (3 times) , The Tim Ferriss Show (2 times) , Grit , The Economics of Everyday Things , The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk , ACQ2 by Acquired , Ad Age Insider and My First Million .

Recently: “How to find your arbitrage (from the guy who’s done it 3x) ft. Nick Kokonas” on My First Million (October 2026); “Nick Kokonas - Know What You Are Selling - [Invest Like The Best, REPLAY]” on Invest Like the Best (Patrick O'Shaughnessy) (December 2025); “#830: Nick Kokonas and Richard Thaler, Nobel Prize Laureate — Realistic Economics, Avoiding The Winner’s Curse, Using Temptation Bundling, and Going Against the Establishment” on The Tim Ferriss Show (October 2025); “#228 Co-Founder Alinea & Tock: Selling Experience” on Grit (February 2025); “#737: Naval Ravikant and Nick Kokonas” on The Tim Ferriss Show (May 2024); “10. Michelin Stars (Replay)” on The Economics of Everyday Things (December 2023).

What They Said

“You don't simply go like, well, here's the recipe and it should taste like this. You have to know what great is. And knowing what great is is making mostly shit 99% of the time.” — Nick Kokonas, My First Million

Kokonas, who built a restaurant business with chef Grant Achatz, on what he told culinary graduates: show up at 6 a.m. and make 25 sauces. He gets emails from young founders who want help with a logo and a name, and tells them to go make the 50 sauces first.

My First Million · 2026-10-26 Permalink → Listen →
My First Million Around 59:24 into the episode
Nick Kokonas

And also, like, no one really knows how to make it. Those recipes were kind of miserably, you know, they went down to the gram. That's for sure. And that was what I told the commencement. I was like, if you want to be a great chef, you show up at 6 a.m. and you make 25 sauces. Yeah,

Shaan Puri

I better see 20 sauces on the counter with blue tape.

Nick Kokonas

You don't simply go like, well, here's the recipe and it should taste like this. You have to know what great is. And knowing what great is is making mostly shit 99% of the time. And then you go like, oh, well, this one's kind of, I don't hate this one. That's probably actually really good. You know? And I get a lot of people that blind email me. My email's out there in the public and I'm fine with it. And I get a lot of like young entrepreneurs going like, hey, I've got this idea and I want to do this or that. And I was like, cool, go do it. Come back to me in five weeks. I don't care about your logo. Right. Like, everyone wants to make the logo. Right. You know, logo first, name for it. I got a great name for a restaurant. Awesome. That's terrific. Make the 50 sauces. You know.

Shaan Puri

Have you ever read that book, Art and Fear? I think they use this pottery class example. Do you know this story? I don't. Perfect example for this. So the story is there's a professor in Florida at university. I think he was actually teaching a photography class and they changed it to pottery, but…

Nick Kokonas

like I know where they are. So you know where they are.

Shaan Puri

At the end of the semester, obviously, the volume people made more volume. They also made the better pots. Of course. And like, you know, basically, this is like this principle is just everywhere. It's so obvious.

Speaker names from our own diarization · position estimated from where the line sits in the episode
“Expertise is such a trap, right? It's such a trap. And you know that a non-expert is going to come after you. Once you get to expert level, you're screwed because somebody who's younger, hungrier, fresher eyes, more willing to break convention to find the new way through is going to kick your ass. So before your ass gets kicked, you should quit.” — Nick Kokonas, My First Million

Kokonas, who has moved from options trading to restaurants to reservation software, explains why he keeps starting over. He says it gets harder with age, and that once you've had some success there is little incentive to quit and lose money for a while.

My First Million · 2026-10-26 Permalink → Listen →
My First Million Around 23:42 into the episode
Nick Kokonas

Yeah, the ladder. What

Shaan Puri

is, what is it? What are you looking for?

Nick Kokonas

We're here for whatever decades if we're lucky. And in order to keep learning and keep young and wake up, like you guys were coming today. They showed up at what, 6:30, 6:15, something like that. I get excited by that. It's exciting to be uncomfortable in the sense of, hey, we're doing something today. We're making this little thing here. And who knows what that'll lead to and all of that. And if you just put yourself out to pasture, essentially, once you get good at something, it's very, very easy to fall into, well, I'm making good money and I know what I'm doing. And I'm kind of an expert in it now. And expertise is such a trap, right? It's such a trap. And you know that a non-expert is going to come after you. Like once you get to expert level, you're screwed because somebody who's younger, hungrier, fresher eyes, more willing to break convention to find the new way through is going to kick your ass. So before your ass gets kicked, you should quit. It's really hard to do. And then go find something new. And it's really hard. The older you get, the slower you get at doing that, the less incentive you have to do it. Right.…

Shaan Puri

What's the quote? You know, most men die at 25. They're buried at 75. Or, you know, I think Naval says as well, like the great, the great ones, the truly great ones, they're great because not because they've reached the top of a mountain, it's because they are willing to go back to the bottom of…

Nick Kokonas

One of the things my dad had on his desk was a little Sisyphus. I've got that, you know, always on my desk. I've had it on my desk forever. And for me, like the Sisyphus thing is like, shit, we got to wake up. And, you know, I'm building a wine bar here. Like, I got out of the restaurant, but we'll…

Shaan Puri

Build a new restaurant. Bring out the boulder. Yeah, right, right, right. Found a new hill. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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