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Pamela Hutchinson

Things Pamela Says on Podcasts

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Pamela Hutchinson has been a guest on In Our Time (BBC) .

Recently: “Casablanca” on In Our Time (BBC) (October 2026).

What They Said

“There's also one song that was written originally for the film, probably everyone's least favorite song in the film, which is a very jaunty number called Knock on Wood. … The people in Rick's Cafe are singing along to this song that says, If you've got trouble, just knock on wood. And I think we're meant to discount this song … because the moral of the film is going to be that when you are in a time of trouble, you don't just sit tight and hope for the best, that you have to act.” — Pamela Hutchinson, In Our Time (BBC)

Asked about the role of music in Casablanca, Hutchinson says the American standards played in Rick's Cafe turn it into a small outpost of America. She reads the one song written for the film as a deliberate example of what not to do.

In Our Time (BBC) · 2026-10-29 Permalink → Listen →
In Our Time (BBC) Around 19:46 into the episode
Speaker 2

her husband, who played

Speaker 4

the Marseillais. Yes, Marcel Dalio, who plays the Croupier in the film, was her real-life husband. Pamela Hutchinson you tell us,

Speaker 2

…moment, and he works it into the film. So we hear it played and we hear it coming back in snatches on the score. So this idea that it represents the love story between Rick and Ilse, their previous romance in Paris, is built, saturated into the film. And it's really wonderful. It works sort of, it works against our better instincts. We are being fully manipulated into finding it romantic. There's also one song that was written originally for the film, probably everyone's least favorite song in the film, which is a very jaunty number called Knock on Wood. And it feels quite jarring. And you hear that quite early on in the film. The people in Rick's Cafe are singing along to this song that says, If you've got trouble, just knock on wood. And I think we're meant to discount this song. We're meant to say that it's wrong from the beginning because the moral of the film is going to be that when you are in a time of trouble, you don't just sit tight…

Speaker 4

I mean, it's kind of a conversion film, if I can come in, because I think that's a really interesting point you make about the difference between those two numbers. Because really, if you think about what's the underlying kind of plot of the film, it's about how Rick, who is shown as a cynic, but…

Speaker 2

We'll come to this point about the politics in a minute. But before we do, what about the business aspect of the studio? So Warner's in the business of making money. Is wartime an opportunity or is it a problem because they have to adapt to what perhaps the government, perhaps society is expecting?

Speaker 4

It's an opportunity. If you look at the pattern of film attendance, it basically rises through the 40s. The 40s is the peak of film attendance all over the world, really. Of course, people are watching different films. So in the Allied world, they're watching Hollywood predominantly, but…

Speaker names come from our own diarization. The position is estimated from where the line sits in the episode.
“Rick has this pose where he says, I don't stick my neck out for anybody. He says that a couple of times. And he doesn't drink with customers and he doesn't take sides on the war. And we see through various bits of information that this is completely not true. He may not be acting on his impulses, but he really is on one side rather than the other. … But in this film, we see again and again that passivity is amoral.” — Pamela Hutchinson, In Our Time (BBC)

Asked how well Casablanca argued against American isolationism, Hutchinson says the film was made to sell the war to the American public. Rick's claimed neutrality is undercut throughout by hints of a past spent fighting fascism.

In Our Time (BBC) · 2026-10-29 Permalink → Listen →
In Our Time (BBC) Around 32:57 into the episode
Speaker 2

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Speaker 3

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Speaker 2

Pamela, actually from the very beginning of the film, there are references to Rick not caring about politics and indeed specifically to isolationism. How effective is Casablanca in combating the ideology of isolationism, which was very present in the United States at the opening of the war? So, I mean, it's quite clear, obviously, that this film was made for the public, the American public. It wasn't made for the commander-in-chief, who'd obviously already made his decision. So, this is about selling the idea of what is the value of being involved in the war. They use words like isolationism and foreign policy quite heavily in the film, but often in regards to people's personal situations. So, not necessarily having conversations about politics. And Rick has this pose where he says, I don't stick my neck out for anybody. He says that a couple of times. And he, you know, he doesn't drink with customers and he doesn't take sides on the war. And we see through various bits of information, as Ian mentioned earlier, this is completely not true. He may not be acting on his impulses, but he has a very strong, he really is on one side rather than the other. He talks to a fellow cafe owner who wants to hire…

Speaker 1

So Ian, what is the key scene where he appears to recognize that his retreat into isolationism is not sustainable and not moral?

Speaker 4

Well, I think it's articulated through a series of moments. I mean, when we see him, there's a crucial moment when he rigs the game, the gambling game, so that the young couple can make enough money. The young refugee couple from Bulgaria. From Bulgaria, precisely. I mean, I think we should just…

Speaker 2

We see lots of other films coming out in 1942 and 1943 by American studios promoting participation in the war against Germany. There was William Wyler's Mrs. Minnever, To Be or Not

Speaker names come from our own diarization. The position is estimated from where the line sits in the episode.

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