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Jack Szostak

Things Jack Says on Podcasts

Where to Find Them

Jack Szostak has been a guest on Into the Impossible With Brian Keating , 632nm , New Books in Science , The Joy of Why and The Trajectory .

Recently: “Jack Szostak - Life's Next Transition May Not Be Biological (Stewarding the Flame, Episode 10)” on The Trajectory (November 2026); “Mario Livio and Jack Szostak, "Is Earth Exceptional?: The Quest for Cosmic Life" (Basic Books, 2024)” on New Books in Science (August 2025); “Origins of Life | Jack Szostak on Basement Experiments to Nobel Prize-Winning Discoveries” on 632nm (December 2024); “Is Earth Unique? Mario Livio and Jack Szostak on the Odds of Alien Life [Ep. 457]” on Into the Impossible With Brian Keating (September 2024); “How Could Life Evolve From Cyanide?” on The Joy of Why (June 2022).

What They Said

“A lot of biologists view Darwinian evolution as so powerful that it can do anything. And they forget that it operates in the context of the laws of chemistry and physics. So you cannot evolve living things that do things that just don't make chemical or physical sense.” — Jack Szostak, The Trajectory

Asked about the key unresolved junctures in how life and complexity develop, Szostak argues that physical limits constrain evolution. He goes on to give the example of roughly two billion years of a 'slime planet' before oxygen could accumulate.

The Trajectory · 2026-11-06 Permalink → Listen →
The Trajectory Around 16:48 into the episode
Jack Szostak

So are we still talking about the origin of life?

Daniel Faggella

…self-transcending process. Some elements of that are still super mysterious in terms of what carries the living state and what doesn't. What are those missing junctures? So you could use this. You could start from the bottom up and do this. Maybe you could start from wherever you'd like. But yeah.

Jack Szostak

Maybe something that's relevant to this is that I think a lot of biologists view Darwinian evolution as so powerful that it can do anything. And they forget that it operates in the context of the laws of chemistry and physics. So you cannot evolve living things that do things that just don't make chemical or physical sense. And those chemical and physical limitations can be extremely strong. We know that in the history of our planet, there was a period of maybe roughly two billion years where we had bacteria, right? We were basically a slime planet. Nothing very interesting happened for a heck of a long time until it became possible to accumulate higher and higher levels of oxygen. So before that, the oxygen was…

Daniel Faggella

What are your thoughts about the meta-transitions and evolution sort of idea at a high level?

Speaker 4

What exactly do you mean?

Daniel Faggella

As sort of a delineator of some of those important thresholds, you know, we could talk about the great oxygenation event. We could talk about multicellularity. We could talk about big enough brains to start doing language and the emergence of this economy and technosphere, et cetera. Are you kind…

Speaker names come from our own diarization. The position is estimated from where the line sits in the episode.
“A huge data center that uses gigawatts of power does not grow out of a small integrated circuit.” — Jack Szostak, The Trajectory

The host was contrasting how living things grow and develop from a seed with how machines are assembled from parts. Szostak, an origin-of-life researcher, finishes the thought with a line on how different AI's physical infrastructure is from biological growth.

The Trajectory · 2026-11-06 Permalink → Listen →
The Trajectory Around 42:20 into the episode
Jack Szostak

And if that's true and possible, and they can start redesigning their own internal structure. Yeah, maybe that's a path to consciousness and everything else. So it

Daniel Faggella

…be the case, then maybe it would. That said, it would be so like if it were made of metal, et cetera, it would be so shatteringly different because you and I, you know, the oak tree comes out of the acorn, which is wild. The way you build a robot is you click the parts together. The way you unfurl.

Jack Szostak

A huge data center that uses gigawatts of power does not grow out of a small integrated circuit. No, it doesn't.

Daniel Faggella

You bring the pieces in, you click them together, you fit them together, you plug it in, right? While if you cut off a lizard's leg, it grows back a leg exactly the same length with the veins in the right places and exactly the right number of fingers of exactly the right length. And so like…

Jack Szostak

It's very different, right? And yet, you know, this is also something that we are now starting to be able to manipulate. Okay, go on. We can manipulate our own genomes. We, you know, we'll have the capacity to, you know, manipulate our own evolution, to design in capabilities. And I think this is…

Speaker 4

about machines manipulating their own design.

Speaker names come from our own diarization. The position is estimated from where the line sits in the episode.

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