“In large organizations, so much of the conversation ends up being about, oh, well, we don't have role clarity. And it's something people say when they are trying not exactly to avoid taking action, but it often allows people to do that.”

Sure.

…we get into a dialogue, I think it would be good for those who haven't had a chance to read it if you could just share the thesis. It's a long enough article, so I'm sure you're going to have to elide some details. But what is your high-order thesis when you were writing the end of role clarity?

The heart of your thesis is something that I think I tried to reflect on when I wrote org design for design orgs and in my own design leadership practice. And Jesse and I have talked about recently, even when we were back at Adaptive Path, where we tried to have just one role. You're an experienced…

Yeah, that's a very good question. And I'm happy that you, it's okay to disagree with a thing, too. I appreciate that it sparked this because it is worth debating and it's worth digging into. I think in the three things that you identified, two of them are really good and worth maintaining as we…

Peter touched on our experiences wrestling with some of this stuff at Adaptive Path. And one of the things about that experience was, honestly, it pretty much worked. We had some challenges. We had some challenges with people who, going back to the identity thing, their identity wasn't just…