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HL Hélène Landemore On Freakonomics Radio

“They knew that you shouldn't give power to people who want power. It's the theme of literature, like Lord of the Rings, the ring will corrupt you, so you don't want to give it to people who are imminently corruptible. At the same time, I do think leadership matters. The question is, how do you elevate leaders in a way that doesn't go to their heads, doesn't entrench their power, doesn't make people feel inferior or subordinated.”

Freakonomics Radio · Ideas & Essays · November 2026

“They knew that you shouldn't give power to people who want power. It's the theme of literature, like Lord of the Rings, the ring will corrupt you, so you don't want to give it to people who are imminently corruptible. At the same time, I do think leadership matters. The question is, how do you elevate leaders in a way that doesn't go to their heads, doesn't entrench their power, doesn't make people feel inferior or subordinated.” — Hélène Landemore, Freakonomics Radio

Context

Stephen Dubner returned to the ancient Athenian practice of choosing officials by lot. Landemore, a political theorist, explains the logic behind it while conceding that leadership still matters.

Transcript

Freakonomics Radio Around 26:15 into the episode
Terry Bouricius

…ones that were adopting all new laws, all those bodies were selected by lottery. The General Assembly, the huge open body, they could declare war, they could pass resolutions, they could give tributes, but they couldn't adopt laws. They themselves transferred power to adopt laws to a jury process.

Stephen Dubner

Elen Landemore of Yale also thinks the Greeks had it right.

Hélène Landemore

They knew that you shouldn't give power to people who want power. It's the theme of literature, like from Lord of the Rings, the ring will corrupt you, so you don't want to give it to people who are imminently corruptible. At the same time, I do think leadership matters. The question is, how do you elevate leaders in a way that doesn't go to their heads, doesn't entrench their power, doesn't make people feel inferior or subordinated.

Stephen Dubner

You like the idea of sortition going back to ancient Athens, yes. If this is such a good idea, and if it was or could be such a good system more broadly, why did it vanish, essentially?

Hélène Landemore

That's a big puzzle. In the 18th century, 19th century, the practice of drawing lots to select public officials completely disappeared. Bernard Manon, who's an important political theorist in France, blames it on a confluence of things. One is the fact that social contract theory was the dominant…

Stephen Dubner

So Elaine Landemore thinks that politicians may be exposed to the wrong kind of people. Terry Bouricius thinks that politicians themselves are the wrong kind of people.

Speaker names come from our own diarization. The position is estimated from where the line sits in the episode.

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