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ST Sander Tordoir Sander Tordoir Sander Tordoir is the Chief Economist at the Centre for European Reform.

“China has generated six, almost 7% now of GDP growth out of net exports over the last few years, a huge number for a large economy. And Germany is the mirror image of that. It's lost 4% of GDP in net exports as it got pushed out of China, pushed out of third markets. … So we are late. We're unequivocally late.”

The Lawfare Podcast: Patreon Edition · US Politics · October 2026

“China has generated six, almost 7% now of GDP growth out of net exports over the last few years, a huge number for a large economy. And Germany is the mirror image of that. It's lost 4% of GDP in net exports as it got pushed out of China, pushed out of third markets. … So we are late. We're unequivocally late.” — Sander Tordoir, The Lawfare Podcast: Patreon Edition

Context

Asked what drove Europe's quick shift on China, the economist cites job losses, economic-security disputes and China's support for Russia, then gives the macro picture of China's export-led growth and Germany's mirror-image losses.

Transcript

The Lawfare Podcast: Patreon Edition Around 28:50 into the episode
Sander Tordoir

Probably the decisive factor is the one that always tends to move politics, which is job losses. So Europe lost, the EU lost 250,000 manufacturing jobs last year. Meaningful hit. That's

Peter Harrell

very meaningful. I mean, that's a big number.

Sander Tordoir

…deterioration in the relationship between Brussels and Beijing because the war in Ukraine is existential for Europe. So if you put all that together, it explains why the shift has been big. And it seems rapid, but like you said, like in the US, the second China shock began at the beginning of this decade when China's real estate sector collapsed and it switched back to export-led growth. China has generated six, almost 7% now of GDP growth out of net exports over the last few years, a huge number for a large economy. And Germany is the mirror image of that. It's lost 4% of GDP in net exports as it got pushed out of China, pushed out of third markets. And so it's still late. And it's kind of stunning that we just discussed currency diplomacy, that Europe is waking up to the currency issue when China devalued the Renminbi in 2022-23. So we are late. We're unequivocally late. Not as late as a 2016 response to a shock from the mid-2000s, but still late.

Peter Harrell

Yeah. I mean, we have a very large and diversified economy. And so these things can kind of. Of take time to go through our system. Question, follow-up question on China's exporting its overcapacity into Europe. How much of this do you think is a result of the tariffs the U.S. put in place on…

Sander Tordoir

Exactly. So, my maybe surprising answer is that the U.S. tariffs were a footnote in this.

Peter Harrell

Yeah, because I used to get accused from the Europe, not, you know, I mean, a European official would be like, oh, your tariffs are like making this our problem. Yeah. To which my response was kind of like, well, okay, but we got to, you know, we had to solve our problem and let's work together on…

Speaker names come from our own diarization. The position is estimated from where the line sits in the episode.

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