“Clients have eroded agency margins over the last three decades, catastrophically. But what they didn't realize is that that margin allowed agencies to stick to their guns and say, look, this is the plan we've got for you. We believe it'll work. If it doesn't work, you can fire us. And I think that more than ever agencies are full of frightened people.”

Oh, now that's going to come out as a soundbite. I agree. I think, okay, so what would you say? Because these forgotten principles, and you mentioned channel planning, you know, as one kind of discipline, perhaps. First of all, what other principles do you think we're losing?

…when we say, well, we need this from you. And they've got to go round the house and stretch their different departments. They're struggling with that as well. But we've lost sort of the two fun bits almost: building relationships and getting on the phone and having a good old chat with your client.

Do you think the lack of conviction is because of lack of knowledge? What is it about an agency that you say, I admire JAA because they have a conviction and they're saying, look, we're not, you know, we're not right for you because we want these results. This is how we see it. And we know what…

I mean, from a JA point of view, I mean, from an industry point of view, what you tend to find is if your quarterly reporting that you're reporting to the PRC is going to be subject to the fact you've made boldly says to the client, you can take it or leave it. They're probably someone upstairs…

Well, the answer to your question is both. So it's both a lack of knowledge to be able to argue coherently and intelligently about why your answer is correct. And I think that there's too little of that. And then there's too little willingness to do that for fear of what the consequence might be. I…