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Carlo Rovelli

Things Carlo Says on Podcasts

Where to Find Them

Carlo Rovelli has been a guest on Into the Impossible With Brian Keating (5 times) , Discovery (2 times) , Within Reason (2 times) , After the Fact (2 times) , FT News Briefing , FQxI Podcast , The Interview , The Origins Podcast with Lawrence Krauss , The Joe Rogan Experience and FT Tech Tonic .

Recently: “#167 There is No Ultimate Reality - Carlo Rovelli” on Within Reason (October 2026); “Carlo Rovelli: Free Will Is Real. Physics Can Prove It.” on Into the Impossible With Brian Keating (September 2026); “#2554 - Carlo Rovelli” on The Joe Rogan Experience (September 2026); “#60 Carlo Rovelli - Time is Weirder Than You Think” on Within Reason (March 2024); “Carlo Rovelli: Life, the universe and white holes” on The Interview (November 2023); “Carlo Rovelli: From Dante to White Holes” on The Origins Podcast with Lawrence Krauss (November 2023).

What They Said

“Consciousness, I think, is a modern way for soul.” — Carlo Rovelli, Within Reason

Rovelli says consciousness is nothing more than many small things interacting, and also that physics hasn't understood a clue about it. Just as chemistry and physics turned out to be compatible descriptions of the same world, he thinks talk of the mind is another valid description, not something to be reduced away.

Within Reason · 2026-10-18 Permalink → Listen →
Within Reason Around 1:03:38 into the episode
Carlo Rovelli

…because it's too complicated. Nobody would even dream of doing that. So we haven't reduced chemistry to physics. Chemistry keeps its entire autonomy as a good way of thinking about reality. We have just shown that the two are perfectly compatible. And when we can use both, they say the same thing.

Alex O'Connor

Yeah. So, okay. So I understand that. I think I was thinking about...

Carlo Rovelli

I would think that, you know, it's the same when we talk about our mind, our consciousness. Consciousness, I think, is a modern way for soul.

Alex O'Connor

Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can understand that. I think.

Carlo Rovelli

We're just using a different language for describing what happened to us, what we do. And of course, we have, it's not like chemistry, physics. We have difficulty of joining the pieces. There's a lot of work to do. I hope it will be done. But there's nothing mysterious, I think, there.

Alex O'Connor

I was thinking about the question you asked about, like, you know, when I sort of want to know what an electron is or something. And you say, well, what's the difference between the question of what it is versus what it does and the question of the chair? And I think I understand that practically…

Speaker names come from our own diarization. The position is estimated from where the line sits in the episode.
“Morality is relative, but not arbitrary. It's not arbitrary at all.” — Carlo Rovelli, Within Reason

Alex O'Connor worries that Rovelli's relational view of reality slides into relativism. Rovelli answers with the Moon: its velocity is only defined relative to something else, but it can't go wherever it wants. He then points to Raskolnikov in Crime and Punishment, who decides morality is arbitrary and finds he can't escape his own.

Within Reason · 2026-10-18 Permalink → Listen →
Within Reason Around 1:10:54 into the episode
Carlo Rovelli

…to relativity, you know, somebody says, oh, come on. If velocity is relative, then the moon doesn't have a velocity per se. It's all relative. It can go wherever it wants. No, the moon cannot go wherever it is. Yeah, right, right, right, exactly. The moon moves in a very unique way. It's relative,

Alex O'Connor

but it's not arbitrary. It's

Carlo Rovelli

relative, but it's not arbitrary. And so morality is relative, but not arbitrary. It's not arbitrary at all. And then there's beautiful, beautiful literature on that. If you read Tostoevsky Crime and Punishment, Lakolnikov, main character, falls in this trap at the beginning of saying, oh, morality is arbitrary. I don't need to obey to my own morality because if I think, you know, I can do, I can kill the little old lady, because I do it for the good of humankind. And then, so he commits a crime, and then he just cannot escape its own morality. This is a beautiful novel, among other things, about the immense power of morality. But if you, a little piece of your brain, use reasons, try to deny it. There's an entire being that rebels at it.

Alex O'Connor

Sometimes people say that the difference between the moral law and like scientific laws, like I think C.S. Lewis writes about this, is, the difference with the moral law is that you can disobey the moral law. You can't disobey the law of physics, but you can disobey the moral law. That's what makes…

Carlo Rovelli

And if you accept that there is this level of dependence of morality on where you are, also your culture, then you're wiser in relation to others. Yeah.

Alex O'Connor

Right?

Speaker names come from our own diarization. The position is estimated from where the line sits in the episode.
“Physics is badly overrated. There's this idea. Oh, we figure out the fundamental equation of the universe. We have figured out the universe. It's bullshit. We haven't figured out anything. It's like, oh, if I learn the basic rule of chess, I figure out playing chess. No, you haven't at all.” — Carlo Rovelli, Within Reason

The physicist is arguing against the idea that particle physics is the level of reality everything else rests on. His example: a Nobel-winning particle physicist can't fix his bicycle, but the mechanic downstairs can. Knowing the basic rules, he says, is not knowing the world.

Within Reason · 2026-10-18 Permalink → Listen →
Within Reason Around 57:34 into the episode
Carlo Rovelli

…of a chair or there's only the way it behaves and affects us? I don't want you to answer that because you know Hume, you know various. I want to tell me what is the difference between this question asked for a chair and this question asked from an electron. I never understood the difference.

Alex O'Connor

…of all the atoms, then I kind of know the position of the chair, for example, right? And in a way that doesn't go the other way. I can know that the chair is there, but I can't know what all of its atoms are doing. But if I know what all of its atoms are doing, I know what the chair is. Yeah,

Carlo Rovelli

this is what you said at the beginning. You introduced by saying this, this is a sort of fundamental basic. Well, I would respond to that by saying that this idea that the physical level, it's a fundamental level on which everything else sort of supervenes, to use the physical word. How should I put it? It's not actually wrong, but it's a silly thing to say. In the following sense, that's my preferred way of putting it. Suppose you and I want to learn playing chess. Okay. Now, chess is based on some basic rules. The king moves one step, the queen marice, and so on. Once you have these rules, all possible chess games are fixed. All possible probabilities of which movies better, which move is worse are fixed. There's nothing else to say about chess. Okay. So why there are books and books about chess? Everything is in the rules. There's nothing else relevant about chess and that. Well, that's obviously a stupid thing to say, right? Because I could learn very well the basic moves of chess. I can be capable of telling them, I mean, a seven-year-old kid can do that. And yet be a…

Alex O'Connor

Not the perspective.

Carlo Rovelli

Not the perspective.

Alex O'Connor

Yeah. Do you think it's

Speaker names come from our own diarization. The position is estimated from where the line sits in the episode.
“It's not true that under any definition of order or disorder, things get disordered. In fact, very often in nature, things left alone get ordered. … If you look at frost, the beautiful ordered structure — who ordered them? … So the idea that entropy is disorder: careful.” — Carlo Rovelli, Into the Impossible With Brian Keating

Brian Keating opened by asking Rovelli to explain the frost on a window — how things left alone can become more ordered. Rovelli's answer is that entropy is not the same thing as disorder, and he ran through oil separating from water, a shaken box of balls settling to the bottom, and a beach sorting its grains from its stones. He thinks this is a case where popular science is bad, and where physicists are often confused themselves.

Into the Impossible With Brian Keating · 2026-09-22 Permalink → Listen →
Into the Impossible With Brian Keating Around 03:29 into the episode
Carlo Rovelli

It's not true that things get disordered. In fact, very often in nature, things left alone get ordered. To imagine that to be free, you have to violate the laws of nature is stupid. You, Brian, can be in a superposition. You can be in LA and also in San Francisco. Your head is older than your feet.

Brian Keating

…me. He blew my mind by telling me that my head is older than my feet. And then he told me, why that's the least strange thing he was going to say. So Carlo, let's start with the frost. You're telling me that things left alone can get more ordered? That's not what I was taught. Walk us through that.

Carlo Rovelli

…dear to me. We always make this story, okay? Take like latte, calf, coffee, and mix, and look, they mix. In fact, take water and vinegar, put some vinegar in water, mix, and you know, they mix. Now, take water and oil, mix, they separate. Oh, yeah? So is this contradicting our entire understanding of the universe? No, it's just things a little bit more complicated than the way they usually said. It's not true that under any definition of order or disorder, things get disordered. In fact, very often in nature, things left alone get ordered. And oil and water separating is one of the many examples of that. If you have a box with balls you shake and then you put it there on the table, all the balls go very nicely in order on the bottom. Okay? They order themselves. If you look at a beach, the ocean, all the little grains are together and the big stones are another side of the beach. They order by the same. Who ordered them? Okay? If…

Speaker 1

Let's talk about the early universe. You already mentioned the block

Brian Keating

universe and Our mutual distaste of that hypothesis. I don't like that. I want to ask the why question. I really, I do want to ask the why question, but I know why questions are not usually answerable. But the universe was somewhat lower entropy, right? It was in a very special configuration. Does…

Carlo Rovelli

Yeah. Yeah, the two are very, very connected. It's not that one explains the other one, because we need an explanation for either. I think the past law entropy and the arrow time, psychological thermodynamics, are different manners of explaining, of pointing out to the same phenomenon about which I…

Speaker names come from our own diarization. The position is estimated from where the line sits in the episode.

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