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AG Adam Grant Adam Grant Organizational psychologist at Wharton, #1 NYT bestselling author of THINK AGAIN, host of the Re:Thinking podcast.

“Several decades of evidence show that when it comes to both your happiness and your physical health, frenemies are actually worse than enemies. … Ambivalent relationships where you have mixed feelings toward other people are actually worse for your well-being because they're unpredictable. You don't know whether Dr. Jekyll or Mr. Hyde is going to show up. You don't know whether you should move in for a hug or brace yourself for a brawl.”

The Rich Roll Podcast · Health & Longevity · November 2026

“Several decades of evidence show that when it comes to both your happiness and your physical health, frenemies are actually worse than enemies. … Ambivalent relationships where you have mixed feelings toward other people are actually worse for your well-being because they're unpredictable. You don't know whether Dr. Jekyll or Mr. Hyde is going to show up. You don't know whether you should move in for a hug or brace yourself for a brawl.” — Adam Grant, The Rich Roll Podcast

Context

Rich Roll asked about messy relationships with people who bring a lot of drama. Grant said the most toxic person is often not the open adversary but the one you feel mixed about.

Transcript

The Rich Roll Podcast Around 1:10:03 into the episode
Adam Grant

I think, I think that's a. Both a risk and unfortunately a common trap that people fall in. And I think a lot of people get caught up in trying to prove themselves instead of looking to improve themselves.

Rich Roll

…people in our lives that we kind of like having around and we get something out of it. But also, like, there's a lot of drama there. Maybe they're a friend of me. Should I stay friends with this person? Should I create a boundary? What is your thinking around how to navigate this type of scenario?

Adam Grant

…that when it comes to both your happiness and your physical health, frenemies are actually worse than enemies. And I think a lot of people find this surprising. They think, you know, the most toxic person in your life has to be somebody who's always an adversary and who's constantly putting you down and badmouthing you behind your back and undermining you. But what the research shows is that ambivalent relationships where you have mixed feelings toward other people are actually worse for your well-being because they're unpredictable. You don't know whether Dr. Jekyll or Mr. Hyde is going to show up. You don't know whether you should move in for a hug or brace yourself for a brawl. I think people have this all the time with their in-laws. They belittle your parenting, but they're also really good to your kids. And so how should you feel about them? You don't know. You spend all this time and energy trying to predict what's going to happen and to resolve your uncertainty about it. And that can actually take a toll physiologically. There are experiments where people are…

Rich Roll

You're in this low grade stress situation perpetually.

Adam Grant

Chronically. Yeah.

Rich Roll

So the solution is identify your frenemies and break up with them. Like, what are you saying? I mean, this does, this can't apply when you're dealing with extended family and relatives, et cetera.

Speaker names come from our own diarization. The position is estimated from where the line sits in the episode.

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