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CP Caleb Porzio Caleb Porzio Creator of Livewire, Alpine.js and Flux UI, open source tools that let Laravel developers build interactive frontends without leaving PHP. Writes and records No...

“People fundamentally misunderstand software who build it. You think people like using it and they just don't. People tolerate software. You're just trying to make it less painful. … I actually hate most software. It's just some of it is less painful.”

Laravel Podcast · Laravel Ecosystem · November 2026

“People fundamentally misunderstand software who build it. You think people like using it and they just don't. People tolerate software. You're just trying to make it less painful. … I actually hate most software. It's just some of it is less painful.” — Caleb Porzio, Laravel Podcast

Context

After a long argument about how ChatGPT's sidebar should work, Caleb Porzio steps back with a framing he credits to Jason Fried: users don't love software, they put up with it.

Transcript

Laravel Podcast Around 34:18 into the episode
Caleb Porzio

Yeah. I don't know. Just today, even before I hopped on this, I literally finished my run, showered, had like a second and was like, oh, I need to talk about like 5K times and like training efficiency and if I need to change anything. And, you know, like, yes. It's constant.

Matt Stauffer

Yeah. No, no. Okay. Anyway, the point, the overall

Caleb Porzio

point is that there is like S-tier, like all software sucks. Like you, the framing that I've been thinking about software in more these days is like, I think it was Jason Fried who says this. It's like people fundamentally misunderstand software who build it. You think people like using it and they just don't. People tolerate software. You're just trying to like make it less painful. It's like, that's so true. I actually hate most software. It's just some of it is less painful. And when I think about things at the very top of that list, it's like Google Sheets, Google.com, ChatGPT, clawed in a terminal, maybe VS Code, but even that's painful. You know, Sublime, maybe, I don't know. And that's it. Everything else is just pain, you know. Maybe Gmail, but no, that's painful too. So what

Matt Stauffer

are you trying to optimize in this particular dynamic we're talking about? What are you trying to optimize for? Because we've talked about like how easy is it to spin up a new one? How intelligent or connected to your previous ones is each one that you're spinning up. How much do previous…

Caleb Porzio

Yeah. And well, that's the thing is you don't want them to disappear in a sense that you feel like they're gone because that's stress.

Matt Stauffer

Yep.

Speaker names come from our own diarization. The position is estimated from where the line sits in the episode.

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