Jason Cohen

Things Jason Says on Podcasts

Founder of WP Engine, the managed WordPress hosting company, and of SmartBear Software, a developer tools company he started in 2003 and sold in 2007. Writes and speaks about bootstrapping, product-market fit, and building software businesses without venture funding. Hosts Smart Bear Live, a podcast working through real founders' go-to-market and customer-acquisition problems on air. Has appeared as a guest on Startups For the Rest of Us, Indie Hackers Podcast, My First Million, Lenny's Podcast, and The Bootstrapped Founder, among others.

Where to Find Them

Jason Cohen hosts and writes Smart Bear Live . They have also been a guest on Ditching Hourly (2 times) , Screaming in the Cloud , Indie Hackers Podcast , The Panel , The Bootstrapped Founder , Built to Sell Radio , The Startup Ideas Podcast , Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth , The Art of Product , My First Million , Startups For the Rest of Us and Marketing School - Digital Marketing and Online Marketing Tips .

Recently: “E09 w/ Jon Sturgeon: AI changed his agency's model. Should he grow or sell?” on Smart Bear Live (October 2026); “E08: Creating customer interview questions before you have customers” on Smart Bear Live (September 2026); “E07 w/ Dan Martell: 1 big logo won't get him the next 10” on Smart Bear Live (September 2026); “E06 w/ Bryce Adams: Pivoting his strategy into his strengths” on Smart Bear Live (September 2026); “E05 w/ Laura Roeder: Scared to commit to his best customers” on Smart Bear Live (September 2026); “E04 w/ Dr. Sherry Walling: He built a great business, but it doesn't feel like it” on Smart Bear Live (August 2026).

What They Said

“I don't believe in NPS. I have data from WP Engine showing that NPS is horseshit. … We found that there's zero correlation between NPS and retention. It's just as likely that a NPS 10 or 100 is going to churn in the next year as someone who did a two, at least for us.” — Jason Cohen, Smart Bear Live

Another guest had just reported a Net Promoter Score of 90 and Cohen was asked what he thought. He also argued that the score stops meaning anything once customers know how it is measured, and allowed that it may be useful in other markets.

Smart Bear Live · 2026-10-04 Permalink → Listen →
Smart Bear Live Around 32:30 into the episode
Mario Peshev

It's 90.

Jon Sturgeon

Pretty good. What do you think, Jason?

Jason Cohen

I don't believe in NPS. I have data from WP Engine showing that NPS is horseshit. I think one of the problems is that once you know it's being measured or how it's being measured, then it doesn't mean anything anymore. People know what the zero to 10 question is, so I think it ruins it. And then the other thing we found is that NPS isn't correlated with anything we cared about. For example, you might assume NPS is correlated with retention. And we found that there's zero correlation between NPS and retention. It's just as likely that a NPS 10 or 100 is going to churn in the next year as someone who did a two, at least for us. So I can believe that there are markets and businesses where it's meaningful.

Mario Peshev

I think it's just personality. If someone's grumpy, they're doing, you know, six out of 10. If they're butterfly, they're doing 10 out of 10, whatever we do. I have a question for Jason.

Jon Sturgeon

Mary and I both have service businesses. I would argue that doing something versus nothing for an NPS is worth it. But what?

Jason Cohen

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker names from our own diarization · position estimated from where the line sits in the episode

Collections They Appear In