Patrick McKenzie

Things Patrick Says on Podcasts

Spent six years at Stripe working on payments infrastructure before moving to an advisory role there, after founding several small software companies over the prior decade. He goes by patio11 online and writes about the intersection of technology, finance and systems thinking: bank runs, deposit insurance, fraud and how far consumer credit actually reaches into an ordinary bank balance. He writes the newsletter Bits About Money and hosts Complex Systems with Patrick McKenzie, a weekly show on the technical and human plumbing behind infrastructure. He has also appeared on Conversations with Tyler and the Dwarkesh Podcast.

Where to Find Them

Patrick McKenzie hosts and writes Complex Systems with Patrick McKenzie (patio11) , writes Bits about Money , writes UI Breakfast: UI/UX Design and Product Strategy , hosts The Cognitive Revolution" | AI Builders, Researchers, and Live Player Analysis , writes The Substack Post , writes The Works in Progress Newsletter and writes AI + a16z . They have also been a guest on Odd Lots (2 times) , Indie Hackers Podcast , EconTalk , Conversations with Tyler , The Economics of Everyday Things , The Stack Overflow Podcast , Dwarkesh Podcast and Crypto Critics' Corner .

Recently: “⁠⁠The $900 million wire that wasn't final” on Complex Systems with Patrick McKenzie (patio11) (October 2026); “Why banks pay you to use their credit cards” on Complex Systems with Patrick McKenzie (patio11) (October 2026); “Stranded? Who pays when air travel breaks” on Complex Systems with Patrick McKenzie (patio11) (September 2026); “Forced vacations are a fraud control” on Complex Systems with Patrick McKenzie (patio11) (September 2026); “Everyone wants to be your wallet” on Complex Systems with Patrick McKenzie (patio11) (September 2026); “How AI detection actually works, with Pangram’s Max Spero” on Complex Systems with Patrick McKenzie (patio11) (August 2026).

What They Said

“If you and the United States federal government disagree whether a transaction is final, you are wrong. That is true for notorious Bitcoin thefts, but it's also true for wire transfers, conveyances of real estate, credit card payments, and grave robbing.” — Patrick McKenzie, Complex Systems with Patrick McKenzie (patio11)

McKenzie reading aloud from his own 2022 essay, "Finality does not exist in payments". He has just described a 2016 Bitcoin transaction worth about $70 million that was partially voided in 2022, something no code base provides for. His argument is that finality is a social and legal construct, not a technical one.

Complex Systems with Patrick McKenzie (patio11) · 2026-10-08 Permalink → Listen →
Complex Systems with Patrick McKenzie (patio11) Around 00:00 into the episode
Patrick McKenzie

Welcome to Complex Systems, where we discuss the technical, organizational, and human factors underpinning why the world works the way it does. Most people have an intuitive ranking of payment finality. Put a $20 burger on your credit card, and you know if something goes wrong that you can dispute it. But you send a wire, and you think the money is just gone because wires are final. That's what wires are for. In August 2020, Citibank accidentally wired nearly $900 million to a group of lenders. Some sent it back. Some said, wires are final. We're keeping it. A federal judge agreed with them. Two years and one appeal later, they gave it all back. I have a classic essay on this topic, and then I'd like to riff a little bit to apply it to the Citibank case, which I think a lot of people misunderstand a bit. Finality does not exist in payments, originally published in Bits About Money on February 15th, 2022. Children have a culture all of their own, and one sacred ritual of it, and sometimes in places, is no takes these backseats. Like much of child law, it both rhymes and is enforced by social sanction dictated by custom immemorial. It means transactions are absolutely final. Many adults believe final transactions to exist. They mostly don't, and that is a good thing, too. That might sound surprising. Finality is a techno-socio-legal construct. What does a transaction being final mean? In the layman's use of the term, it means that the transaction cannot be reversed. As a payments professional, finality can be thought of more of a probability distribution given the technical and organizational infrastructure which was used to make a payment. In the industry, we call this the rails. Finality also brings in the facts of the underlying transaction, the relationship of the parties, and the governing law or laws and regulatory regimes. We can confidently say things like, wire transfers are more final than credit card payments, but we generally don't say wire transfers are final. If they were really final, the world would break. An extreme example which proves the point. The cryptocurrency enthusiast community largely believes that code is law. Not your keys, not your coins, etc., etc. Many crypto enthusiasts would say that the Bitcoin protocol does not prohibit reversing transactions, but provides a security guarantee which suggests the likelihood of a reversal after an hour or so is infinitesimal. And yet, someone sent $70 million worth of Bitcoin in 2016, and that transaction was partially voided, with the reversal being worth slightly more than $70 million due to Bitcoin volatility. That didn't happen an hour later. It happened in 2022. How? The answer is nowhere in the Bitcoin white paper or any code base. A full recounting of it is outside the scope of this anecdote, but it rhymes with: if you and the United States federal government disagree whether a transaction is final, you are wrong. That is true for notorious Bitcoin thefts, but it's also true for wire transfers, conveyances of real estate, credit card payments, and grave robin. Possession is nine-tenths of the law, so the saying goes, but the state can conjure as many tenths are required if it is motivated to. The overwhelming majority of transactions do not go to the state for adjudication. In fact, English lacks a non-mathematical phrase in common use to describe how much of an understatement that is. Billions of transactions happen every year, on the order of hundreds of thousands get explicitly adjudicated. Non-state agreements for dispute resolution. If payment rails don't provide finality, what do they provide in its stead? Predictability. They publish rules, cast call them laws, and operate dispute resolution processes, definitely not courts, which provide for relatively efficient, relatively inexpensive, relatively fast decisions on transactions without needing to escalate past the payment rail to the state. These rules have a property in common with formal law. They are not fully descriptive of the system that is envisioned by them. For example, in credit card disputes, almost all decisions which matter are made by an entry-level employee of the card issuer, and those decisions vary wildly across issuers, even in circumstances which look very similar. As a simplified example, issuers who focus on premium card reusers frequently make a business decision to side with their customer more frequently than, say, mass market banks do. They would probably entirely automate chargeback sustained if the network rules allowed them to, but they don't. A side effect of formal rules is that they give soft security guarantees to an ecosystem, and those security guarantees allow people within an ecosystem to transact in something approaching mutual understanding of the degree of finality on offer. Additionally, they let ecosystems compete for users and for individual transactions, specifically on the basis of different rules for finality. Take wire transfers, please. We largely don't think of FedWire as being an agent in the same sense that American Express is an agent, but FedWire factually does have a marketing department and, believe it or not, is in vicious competition with Amex for at least some transactions. One important fact in the mind of both buyer and seller is that Amex charges more as the transaction gets larger, and Fedwire, in relative terms, basically doesn't. But another is that Fedwire has a relatively strong presumption of finality, and American Express very explicitly does not. Businesses who use American Express, or other credit card networks, to process payments often wonder why this is, particularly after they've been hit by a chargeback, which is industry jargon for a credit card payment reversal. The big strategic reason, unchanged in the decades we've had credit cards, is that card networks are a trusted overlay on economies with heavily heterogeneous trust relationships. Some credit card transactions are between a regular and the cafe they've gone to for 20 years, but some are between a business traveler and the hotel they'll never set foot in again. And credit cards guarantee to users that the risk of these two transactions is similar. They increase social trust between peers on the network by decreasing technical trust. This is akin to alchemy. Younger generations might not appreciate this, but there was a very real question in the late 1990s and across much of the world even today, whether transactions could ever take place over the internet without being able to look counterparties in the eye. Aren't hackers just going to steal all the money exposed to the internet? And lo and behold, they did not. But a necessary precondition for answering that question was there being money exposed to the internet. Credit card guarantees of reversibility substantially made that happen. I would be remiss if I didn't give regulations some of the credit here. Again, the payment rails could say in their rules that transactions are final, but private industry is not the court of final appeal. This is, incredibly to me, still an alive question for at least some financial institutions in the United States who believe Zell transfers are final because Zelle does not contemplate reversing transactions. Until the people with guns stop enforcing Regulation E, guidance to customer service representatives about finality is not actually controlling. And I'll say as an aside, years later, the CFPB did sue the large banks in the United States because they had told their customer service representatives to tell customers untrue things about the scope of Regulation E. That suit was then dismissed after politically motivated shake-ups in the CFPB in 2025. But just saying as an analyst and observer, it is still the case that Zell is an electronic payment method, and it is still a case that Regulation E says what it says with regards to customer liability for misused electronic payment methods. Wait, are you telling me that wires are reversible? Of course, wires are irreversible. They were not designed by children, but by professionals who live in a society which has systematically important institutions. And in the event of malfeasance or mistakes, society does not tolerate a bank failing or a state missing payroll simply because someone said, no, takes these back seas fast enough. Mistakes happen, by conservatively, the hundreds of thousands daily across all payment systems. Millions, depending on your definition of mistake. Wire transfers, like almost all payment systems, explicitly contemplate them and have a socio-legal ritual to quickly reverse them. The ritual is called hold harmless and comes from a soft guarantee about the wire transfer ecosystem, which is that transactions are largely between sophisticated counterparties acting in good faith, intermediated by institutions whose probity is almost sacrosanct. Importantly, wires are an expectation worth having a human in the loop for. This is very not true of most payments. A hold harmless is a very, very brief conversation between two peers at two different institutions, which is then memorialized on paper. The peers are generally operations professionals, one at the receiving institution and one at the sending financial institution, and sometimes even at its customers, since many serious users of financial infrastructure have operations teams to interact with their providers. The conversation is often shockingly informal, on the level of, yeah, we goofed, and we sent $1.2 billion to the wrong account Mondays. Am I right? And the operations professionals make a verbal agreement about the disposition of the transaction in minutes or less. The agreement is then solemnized in a brief document which gives Hold Harmless its name. The ops professionals are both taking a risk in voiding a transaction, and the party asking to avoid it, the sender, offers the party with the capability to void it, the receiver, a contractual indemnification should the state later come to the opinion that the ops professionals acted improperly. You can get a flavor of the language from NASA's model letter for ACH transactions. Hold harmlesses for wires look just a tiny bit different. How common are hold harmlesses? It took the combined forces of several agencies of the federal government more than five years to reverse $4.5 billion in Bitcoin transaction. That probably counts for a few days' worth of hold harmlessness executed after breezy telephone calls. It is worth noting that this is substantially more complicated internationally. You can still absolutely reverse a wire between an arbitrary bank in Japan and the United States in either direction, but the risk of unintentional fidelity. Goes up materially versus domestic wires. And while substantially all financial institutions in those two nations are de facto peers in a group of high trust counterparties, that is decidedly not true of all financial institutions in all nations. As an aside, how do you reverse a wire that is erroneously sent to Japan? Well, a funny anecdote for you. There happen to be two Japanese banks which have Swift codes, which is the thing that one uses for routing an international wire, that are one letter off of each other and approximately nine letters long. Once upon a time, a Japanese salaryman who happens to live in the United States instructed his American bank, by the way, when you wire the tax payment, please wire it to the correct bank because there are two Japanese banks that have Swift codes, which are one letter apart from each other, and occasionally miss wires get blown up by American bankers, so please be attentive here. And it turned out that that payment did not arrive in the ordinary course. So the salaryman called his bank in Japan, asking, hmm, what happened to the money? And the bank said very apologetically, well, you know how American bankers are. Sometimes they happen to make this particular genre of mistake. And the salaryman said, oh, well, you know how American bankers are, but you also know how Japanese salarymen are. I instructed them about that mistake before making this wire and then thoroughly checked the wire confirm, and it says the appropriate thing on it. And the Japanese bank said, well, we'll wait another day to see if it arrives, but it really should have arrived by now. Could you please ask the Americans one more time? So the salaryman got on the phone to the American bank and said, hey, since you sent a wire message, it probably went over Swift. Do you happen to have the actual Swift message available so that I could present it to the Japanese bank and have them follow up with their investigation? And the bank gave the salaryman a copy of the Swift message, and the Swift message had the wrong thing written on it, despite the wire confirm having the right thing written on it, due to infelicities in having to manually retype between applications, perhaps. So the salaryman sent his American bank a letter saying, well, it seems that I told you to wire money to this particular account in Japan, and in fact, told you to pay double plus attention to make sure that it was not sent to this other financial institution in Japan. And yet, the bank's money seems to have somehow ended up there anyhow. But clearly, my money is still at the bank, so send that to the bank that I told you to, please. And the bank said, well, we don't really agree with that theory of our operations here, but by total coincidence, money has arrived back from Japan today. So we will resend the wire. And they did so. Anyhow, a fun story about the joys of dealing with wires internationally. So why does this matter? Obviously, if you, or more to the point, your business interacts with the financial system, it is important to correctly model the sort of finality guarantees you get on transactions. For financial professionals, we likely haven't seen the final form of finality. There is still a rich design space there, and it appears underexplored over the last few decades. Some newer payment methods, including cryptocurrencies, are doing interesting tweaks, generally towards making payments substantially more final than credit cards. But you could imagine guarantees in the opposite direction working for at least some transactions among some group of users. Another very interesting axis is whether finality guarantees should be much more explicit than they are currently, and whether one should be allowed to pay for different finality guarantees. So that's the essay. Now, a bit of brief riffing on the Revlon situation, which many people misunderstood when it came out. So a brief riff on the Revlon situation from back in 2020 through 2022. Much of this was originally reported/slash commented on by Matt Levine, but well, he has funny and directionally accurate takes on it. I have my own takes/slash how to put this reflected PTSD about looking at applications facing operations professionals that would allow someone to make a $900 million mistake very easily and then have that mistake not get caught despite two other individuals taking an eyeball at the contemplated transaction. This isn't the most expensive software slash user experience bug in history, but goodness, it has got to be up there. So the situation that approaches the world in 2020. Revlon is a cosmetics company. It has fallen upon hard times, and it has arrived at a situation where it owes a lot of money to various lenders, a principal balance of approximately $900 million. So in somewhat better times, in 2016, Revlon had taken out a roughly $1.8 billion loan with Citibank as the administrative agent. And so we're going to be concentrating on the actions of Citibank employees for the next few minutes, because Citibank employees made a bit of a boo-boo with respect to an internal piece of software called FlexCube.

Speaker 2

I think the acknowledgement of an ad read sounds cooler in Japanese.

Patrick McKenzie

Cool, right? So picture this. You've finally recruited that engineer you've been eyeing for months. The interview feedback was unanimous. Totally cracked. Their salary and equity grant were pricey, but worth it. You can't wait to get them to work. On filing expense reports? No, of course. You've never hired anyone just to have them do expense reports. But everyone you hire has to do expense reports because you're a grown-up company with stakeholders to satisfy. And perhaps you've even adopted one of the more modern expense report systems to be 50% less insultingly wasteful. Mercury, the banking provider I use for my own business, has an alternative, Mercury Spend. Your team's expense policies, approvals, limits, and reporting live in the same place with the rest of the business banking. So you spend less time asking an engineering lead to ask a senior engineer to fish out a SaaS invoice and more time actually doing things that matter. Have you ever really enjoyed a conversation with an accountant about expense substantiation? No, and the accountant didn't either. Just forward the SaaS receipt email to the usual alias and Mercury spend will save humans from thinking about the rest. When my assistant last told me a Mercury debit card charge was declined, I was able to approve a temporary increase in the cards limits in less taps than it took me to text them to try again, please. I also love being able to spin up cards trivially for a person, project, or expense category. A $1,000 a week limit on software. I'm a sassy guy. And like the rest of Mercury, it works regardless of whether you're a startup getting formal for the first time or a well-established company. Mercury has over 300,000 customers of all sizes. Fittingly, you don't need to talk to sales to liberate your team from expense report drudgery. Go to mercury.com to learn more and sign up in minutes. Mercury is a fintech company, not an FTIC insured bank. Banking services provided through Choice Financial Group and Column NA, Members FDIC. The IO card is issued by Patriot Bank, NA, member FDIC, pursuant to a license from MasterCard International Incorporated. Meetings get a bum wrap. This meeting could have been an email. But sometimes it is really useful to get everyone in a room so there are no misunderstandings. So do the notes for the meeting actually reflect what was decided in it? That is where Granola comes in. It is a modern notepad for meetings. You attend the meeting like you usually do, and Granola, running on your own device, securely transcribes it. You jot down notes as you usually do, and Granola enriches your version, tracking multiple speakers, the back and forth of the meeting, and final decisions. You can even chat with your notes, live or after the meeting. Why did this slip from Q3 again? Who is in charge of getting sign-off for marketing? Granola lets everyone be present in the meeting rather than having one person sidelined by being note-taker. It's your usual meetings, now with superpowers. Action items, actioned, owners, owned, synergies. Sorry, no amount of meetings will ever let me say synergies unironically. If meetings are eating up your day, Granola is a no-brainer. You can try it totally free. Just head to granola.ai/slash complex systems. That's granola.ai slash complex systems to get your time back. Try it for free at granola.ai slash complex systems. To make a long story short, if you want to make a approximately $8 million interest payment via FlexCube, you have to enter that fact in more form fields than is obviously sort of like naturally required. And if you don't hit all of those form fields, you will instead wire out the entire principle of the loan rather than simply an interest payment. And there will be a confirmation, but the confirmation won't exactly make it obvious that the entire principal of the loan is leaving the bank. And so, on August 11th, 2020, while attempting to make about an $8 million interest payment, one employee at a business outsourcing firm in a business process outsourcing firm in India attempts to key in that interest payment for $8 million and queues up Citi to send out $900 million or so. And then a second employee at the BPO also makes substantially the same mistake in checking it, and then it gets sent over to a city approver who actually works in Delaware, and that person also approves it, and so out $900 million goes. So, this hits the account of various lenders, and the lenders are largely surprised to get it. There is internal chatter. Was this a mistake? Did Citibank send us a notice that they were going to repay the Revlon thing early? And bluntly, if you think about it for a few seconds, this kind of stinks to high heaven because this debt is trading at like 20 to 30 cents on the dollar, and you don't expect to get 100 cents in full satisfaction out of the clear blue sky several years early. From, again, a party with extremely averse interest to yours, who you might be engaged in an act of litigation with. So, Citibank realizes its mistakes within a day and hits all of the lenders with a recall notice, saying essentially, hey guys, we goofed. You're going to do the thing that the culture that is. New York City strongly suggests you're going to do right now, right? And some lenders return the money, about $400 million worth. But about 10 managers representing various funds and similar and high-net worth individuals that were invested in this instrument continue to hold about $500 million. So who is out the $500 million? It is Citi. And Citi is pretty unhappy for a variety of reasons. $500 million operational mistakes are not exactly unknown in the financial industry, but they're pretty rare. Citi sues over this. Gets to the district court, and the district court says, well, there is this obscure thing in New York law called the discharge for value defense. This charge for value defense is basically like, in the case of an obvious error in a payment, we reverse the payment. No worries. But if the recipient of the payment has the like legitimate belief that, no, the payment is something that is actually owed to them in a way that a lender might assume that full repayment of a loan is actually owed and they haven't received notice of the error at the point the payment is made, payment is good. And so the judge says, nope. In this case, industry standard practice does not control New York law controls, and New York law says you can just keep the $500 million that you believe you are owed. This causes an absolute firestorm in the financial industry for so many ways and results in, oh boy, probably north of $500 million in legal spend as so many contracts get rewritten to say, despite what New York law says, if there is an erroneous payment, you absolutely do not do the thing that New York law suggests that you have the default right to, but instead will hew to what was previously industry-stranded practice, take the telephone call and return the money, you freaking idiots, sign on the dotted line, please. But it turns out that the non-final final payment is more final than was expected at the moment because it goes to the Court of Appeals. And the Court of Appeals says, among other things, you can read the entire opinion at your leisure. One, they think the district court judge erred in applying the discharge for value defense. And then two, it's just like monstrously perverse and disruptive that this transaction would get allowed to stand. That despite being a wire transfer, this should have been non-final from the jump. And I think that is very instructive in the way that the sort of technical reality of the wire and the social reality of the wire that, you know, we have this culture in the industry of doing hold harmless. And this should have been nothing more than like a single, not very stressful phone call between Citi and each lender. It resulted in a multi-year, multi-court battle. And then the legal reality trumped the legal reality, trumped the social reality, trumped the technical reality of the wire. And I find that to be just endlessly fascinating. But the international comparison here is also quite instructive. So in the United States, we've mentioned that subject to ongoing disputes or, well, they're not ongoing at the moment, but give it a minute. Subject to disputes between the regulators of United States banks and the banks with respect to Zelle. Zell payments are broadly thought to be like mostly final at the moment for one interesting class of payments. Zell, oh man, I should write an essay about this at some point, is a blocking play. It basically exists to give the banks a way to say, don't just take all your day-to-day activity to Cash App or Venmo. And it is broadly underbaked as a solution in a lot of ways. But it offers substantially instantaneous payments. And there are two competing standards for doing substantially instantaneous payments between bank accounts in the United States. But Zelle is the one that has most of the adoption right now. One is FedNow, which the payment wag joke for many, many years has been calling it Fed Later. And the other is RTP, which stands cleverly for real-time payments. You can make real-time payments right now, but the supported institution set for both sending and receiving is very far from full coverage. And Zell is much closer to full coverage. And so most people use Zell. The guarantees that different nations make with respect to whether consumers are at risk for their payments or not are very different from each other. The UK, for example, has substantially instantaneous bank account transactions between banks, requiring a two-factor authentication, typically through a mobile app. So the UK, as a broad feature of bank accounts, allows you to do instantaneous payments between bank accounts at almost any pound amount. And this has caused a lot of what's called. App fraud, APP, APP fraud, and it largely affected the usual suspects, largely consumers who might not be very sophisticated, older savers in particular, who responded to SMS messages or phone calls from scammers, et cetera, et cetera. So the UK said, okay, well, we're going to make the banks eat that one in the same way that Regulation E in the United States makes banks largely finally responsible for certain forms of fraud committed against users, and then the banks in the US offload it elsewhere. And there is a sort of cap on the amount that the payment standards body in the UK makes the bank eat, but it's very generous, 85,000 pounds or so reduced after pressure from more than 400,000 pounds. And the first year reimbursement was on the order of 173 million pounds out of banks. So not a small amount of money. Also, probably not full coverage for frauds committed in the United Kingdom, but it's just my finger-to-the-wing guess based on the size of the economy and typical fraud rates. So the PSR made an independent valuation and believes that app fraud was down by about 21%, which translates to about 70 million pounds of savings to consumers. And they thought, well, this is just that after this guarantee makes it possible to reverse these transactions, even with the bank being ultimately responsible for it, it's just a less attractive fraud surface. And that sort of whack-a-mole is quite common. Fraudsters go to whatever rail makes it most possible for them to successfully extract the money. India also historically had a similar problem with UPI. And India's solution was somewhat different. So rather than having the transaction be reversible and put it on the banks if there's no longer sufficient funds in the account to recover, in the case of a mule account, for those of you who don't know this lingo, mules are the individuals or companies that fraudsters with active knowing coordination or otherwise suborn to move money on their behalf. Frequently, just people responding to work-from-home scams. But some mules absolutely know what they're doing is too good to be true. You know, just receive money that is directed into your bank account and then forward it on to someone we nominate and keep 10% for your trouble. And then some people are a bit more naive about how the world works. And both people who are quite sophisticated about how the world works and quite naive about how the world works are allowed to get bank accounts. And that is broadly a just decision made by society and will not be reversed anytime soon. UPI exists, public-private partnership, wonderful, substantially instantaneous rail to make payments. UPI's fraud guarantee did not cover the case of a customer being induced to approve a payment on their cell phone or other device, even if they were induced fraudulently to make that payment. And this resulted in a politically unsustainable amount of fraud in India. And so it appears that the decision the RBI made was, okay, we will allow a one-time reversal of a payment made for in this common fraud modality where it is actually the user with their own hands on their own device making the fraudulent payment, but they've been induced to do so by lies being told by the fraudster. And so they shouldn't really be liable for it. So we will allow you to reverse that one time. In the case where we can't get it back from the fraudster's mule, rather than putting it to the bank, we will put it to a special fund stood up by the RBI/slash payment scheme. This is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. Please don't get frauded frequently. We would like to avoid the sort of moral hazard of you assuming that we will always cover for your mistakes. And then Japan decided to do this sort of differently. So although it is technically possible to reverse a furikomi, a bank-to-bank transfer in Japan, in practice, the reversal procedure, which is called kumimuvoshi, if you want some trivia night credit for Japanese payments professionals, in practice, the reversal procedure is so rare that most people, even in the Japanese financial industry, don't understand that that is literally a thing you can do. And what it does is the sender, similar to the case of Hold Harmless in the United States, but somewhat more regimented, the sender sends a request to the receiving institution. Hey, will you allow us to recall that? The receiving institution can't, at the level of the ops team, unilaterally recall the payment. They have to ask the account holder. And the account holder, in the case of them being a money mule, will typically say no or not respond to the request. And so it is. Is this poorly understood way to reverse the bank payments doesn't solve for the fraudulent use case or even the mistaken use case in Japan? So the Japanese government said, oh, well, typically elderly people are getting taken for just absurd amounts based on scams here. What can we do about it? What they largely settled on was user education and suasion against the financial industry to sort of do, let's say, harm mitigation approaches. So we're going to ratchet down the maximum amount of payments you can send today without actually coming into the bank. We're going to have bank tellers visit old people when they come up to the ATM and say, so what brings you up to the ATM today? Is it perhaps that you have received a telephone call? If so, let's talk a little bit before you push buttons on the ATM. Because unlike ATMs in the United States, the ATM in Japan can wire out close to $10,000 without any bank staff ever being involved. But the other thing they did was they made a sort of special legal procedure by which someone could file a complaint, and then the Japanese version of the Deposit Insurance Corporation could designate a mule's account as no longer being legally owned by the mule. And then the defrauded users could take pro-router shares of the amount of money that was left in the mule's account. The problem with this is that in Japan, since money movement is substantially instantaneous and since getting cash out of the financial system is still not all that weird of a thing to do, very frequently the amount of money that was in the mule's account at the point of the legal process being sent against it was nearly zero. And so this largely didn't solve for the redress to defrauded users. And so that's how various nations have differently approached this question of: okay, if the payment is final, if we say it is, when should we say it is? And even in light of concerted government action to make certain payments less final than they are otherwise believed to be, the social, technical, cultural substrate of those payments continues to make them final. Even when the state says, no, no, we think normatively that shouldn't be final. And this is part of the ongoing cat and mouse game between the good guys, all of us, inclusive of the financial industry, and the bad guys and their ravenous attempt to get at various people's owned assets. And that is, unfortunately, a recurring theme for complex systems and bits about money. We've covered it in the past. I will put some links in the show notes, and we are quite likely to cover it in the future. But hopefully, we'll have a happier topic to end on next week. See you then.

Speaker 2

Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of Complex Systems. If you have comments, drop me an email or hit me up at Patty11 on Twitter. Ratings and reviews are the lifeblood of new podcasts for SEO reasons, and also because they let me know what you like.

Speaker names from our own diarization · position estimated from where the line sits in the episode
“Organized crime does not outscale capitalism. The threat is when it gets to piggyback illegitimately on capitalism.” — Patrick McKenzie, Complex Systems with Patrick McKenzie (patio11)

McKenzie is reading his own essay on the wallets business, and had just deflated the long-running media story about elaborate fake e-commerce sites built to harvest card numbers. His point is that the real volume of stolen card data comes from breaches at companies that were legitimately handed millions of cards in the course of business. It sets up why PayPal's original pitch — never show the seller your card number at all — was worth something.

Complex Systems with Patrick McKenzie (patio11) · 2026-09-03 Permalink → Listen →
Complex Systems with Patrick McKenzie (patio11) Around 00:00 into the episode
Patrick McKenzie

Welcome to Complex Systems, where we discuss the technical, organizational, and human factors underpinning why the world works the way it does. Hi to hello, everyone. My name is Patrick McKenzie, better known as Patty 11 on the internet. So I'm sporting a new haircut alone in the studio today. I earlier went to my usual barber, paid the stylist $100 via Venmo, and thought, wow, it would be really interesting to describe to people why PayPal urgently wants to be in the middle of that transaction. PayPal has an acquiring business. They will let people process credit cards. But Venmo is an example of a wallets business, which I wrote about in Bits About Money a few years ago, and I thought I would read that essay with some updates and then presage potential future essays that I might write about the wallets business, vis-a-vis agents transacting for people, agents transacting on their own behalf, or potentially the use of stablecoins in wallets, which has been rumored for a long time, but is not materially adopted yet. So, without further ado, the essay, The Business of Wallets, originally written for Bits About Money back on April 30th, 2024. One of the best series of credit card commercials was the now classic Capital One, What's In Your Wallet, which reimagined the user as either an observer of or participant in family-friendly Viking rates. That always felt a bit on the nose for me, given Capital One's traditional market focus, but be that as it may, it's one of my strongest associations with the word wallet. Many of my contemporaries and younger users no longer carry a physical leather or plastic wallet to hold their identification cards and cash. All of these either live directly on their cell phone or, in some cases, hang out in its case. But industry saw that transition coming a long time ago and vied to get their most valuable bits about money, but dumb bum, onto electronic systems in an enduring manner. Industry called the customer-presenting elements of those systems electronic wallets, which quickly got shortened to wallets. Usage of this term has bounced around over the years as various product teams have tried to one-up their competitors or emphasized that the thing they're doing is merely wallet-adjacent or a superset of wallet functionality. Be that as it may, it's useful to look around the world and say, yeah, someone definitely pitched that as a wallet. I feel I have to add a clarification that a while ago, the crypto folks repurposed the word wallet to mean a collection of private keys controlled by a single entity, and then the software artifact, which, given an instruction to move money from A to B, would assemble that money from separately kept accounts corresponding to a list of private keys and send the relevant crypto network candidate transaction for inclusion in the blockchain that would eventually move money from A to B. Those are not the sort of wallets under discussion. For crypto enthusiasts, I'll mention that it is instructive to contrast how crypto wallets, definition number two, make money versus how those wallets make money. One more disclaimer: I previously worked at and am currently an advisor to, Stripe. Stripe does not necessarily endorse what I write in my personal spaces. Stripe also has a product, link, which looks quite a bit like a wallet, if you squint a bit. The big question about wallets. Frequently in finance and the technology surrounding it, relatively small questions swing huge doors about, for example, regulatory and partner complexity for bringing something to market. The small question with large implications about wallets is: can it hold a balance of actual money? If it holds actual money, that starts looking to regulators an awful lot like a deposit product. Regulators strongly prefer that deposits stay within the regulated banking sector. The single largest reason is that they're worried that households' immediately accessible stored funds stay safe and accessible. A major follow-up reason, less understood by non-specialists, is that regulated banks are bound to a long list of consumer protection items on the transaction level, not the institution level. A lot of the abuse in the economy happens in $50,000 or $5,000 increments rather than multi-billion dollar increments. Regulators sleep happier, knowing that this abuse happens at companies with teams of operators standing by. Those operators will groan and chalk a disputed transaction, incidents of fraud, or glitch in the matrix up to the operational losses budget rather than sticking a user with it. Wallets show up early in the life of the internet. The granddaddy of wallets was PayPal. In the early days of internet commerce, nearly 30 years ago, many users were askance about typing their credit card details online. In some countries, this would have been their banking details. The physical capability to pay with banking details lagged cards so hard in places like the US and Japan that online commerce became synonymous with card use early. This persisted for decades, though it is no longer strictly true. Younger users might not appreciate this, but there were front-of-the-newspaper. Newspapers used to have front pages. One of them was considered most important. It was a different time. There were front-of-the-newspaper stories that scared large parts of the population that if you typed your credit card number into any keyboard, it would be stolen by hackers. There was a purported raft of fake e-commerce sites where bad guys would spend billions of dollars. To create convincing facsimiles of real e-commerce sites just to steal your credit card details. This was probably never actually a major threat by percentage of all stolen cards. Not when those articles were written or afterwards, but this would not be the first or last time the media convinced itself of an untruth and then was unable to find an industry insider to leak them a SQL query dispelling their fantasies. The largest source of poor bank credit card information is scaled breaches of card issuers or companies that were legitimately presented hundreds of thousands or millions of card in commerce. Organized crime does not outscale capitalism. The threat is when it gets to piggyback illegitimately on capitalism. And so that was the initial value proposition of PayPal. Convey money from your own payment instruments to others on the internet, by volume, mostly eBay auction sellers, without needing to show those potential devious hackers your actual credit card number. That way, your exposure was upper bounded at the single transaction in progress, and hopefully PayPal or your bank would intervene if something went wrong. But then the eBay seller ended up with money. And what did they do with it? Stocks, flows, and whatever the heck a wallet is. There are classically two ways to make money in financial project innovation. You charge the customer for stocks, an ongoing and often percentage-based fee to custody their assets for an arbitrarily long time. Or you charge them for flows, a per instance and sometimes scaling with size fee on transactions specifically. Very frequently, from the perspective of a single user, stocks are priced and flows are free, or vice versa. In the basic bank account, stocks are priced via the interest rate spread on deposits, but transactions are free or close to it. In credit card processing for businesses, stocks are free-ish, but flows, incoming transactions from customers, are priced. So, do wallets with embedded cash make money from stocks or flows? Yes. The enduring genius of PayPal's wallet model was that moving money into PayPal's ecosystem cost a substantial amount of money via card interchange. PayPal would try to set their pricing, historically about 2.9% plus about 30 cents, such that it was above most interchange fees they'd eat moving money into the system. Then, they would strongly encourage users to keep that balance within PayPal. This was natural for many casual eBay sellers. They were buyers as well, rather than being professional antique dealers, and leaving their internet money somewhere on the internet until they next needed money on the internet worked out fine. When a customer did the next transaction, paying from their PayPal balance to another PayPal user, the money moved internally at the speed and cost of a database transaction, approximately instantaneously and too cheap to meter. And then PayPal would try, with varying levels of success, to charge the full 2.9% plus 30 cents, this time making 290 bips of margin rather than 80 to 120 bips or so of margin. It, by the way, is how financial industry people pronounce basis point, which is written out BPS. Supercharging the margin possibilities by disintermediating the card ecosystems is the primary economic advantage of wallets capable of holding balances. I emphasize this because non-specialists routinely assume the thing that looks like a bank deposit and might actually be a bank deposit under the hood must earn revenue in the same way that bank deposits earn revenue via net interest margin. It does, and in high-interest environments like the one we're currently living in, at least in the U.S., this is lucrative. PayPal earned nearly $500 million in interest on customer balances per their 2023 annual report. Most of that is very high margin revenue, but it is not the ballgame. The real prize is having vastly better economics on the transactions. It's easy to see this when you zoom into the economics of a single account. PayPal claims accounts on average have about 40 transactions a year. I think that includes some strategic ambiguity between personal and corporate accounts, but let's assume a typical consumer might carry $200 in balance and do 10 transactions each for about $40 per year. So that's something like $10 of margin from net interest and either owe about $1 margin from transactions that the transactions are funded with the most expensive credit cards, or about $15 of transaction margin if they're just repeatedly funded by the PayPal balance. And thus a subtlety. How do you do $400 in transactions out of $200 balance without extending credit? You convince the customer to let you top up their balance via an ACH pool or similar method, which, unlike credit card transactions, is very close to free. What does an ACH pool cost? The cost of an ACH pool depends on a lot of things, like you're negotiating savvy on volume. But if you were to guess, maybe it costs 5 cents when you're buying hundreds of millions of them, you would be in the ballpark. If you quickly check what your payment processor of choice charges businesses to do their own ACH pools, you'll get quoted a number closer to, for example, 30 cents. This should not surprise you. Payment providers are in the business of earning margin on underlying payments rails, in the same way that Coca-Cola is in the business of earning margin on combinations of water, carbon dioxide, and core derivatives. You can't just pay Coke for the corn and call it a day. Coke also structurally gets much better prices on core. Than you do, because you buy a few ears of corn from the supermarket, and Coke buys this agricultural output of Iowa. Many listeners live in nations where interbank transfers do not go over ACH rails, and so may a maximum culpa for the provincialism here. In your nation, interbank transfers are broadly speaking much less expensive than most card transactions. Unless you live in Japan, in which case your friendly local fintech product innovators could really talk your ear off about shenanigans to decrease the money movement costs to support wallet operations. For example, let's say it costs about 200 yen to move money between banks, but moving money inside a single bank is much closer to free. Could we not simply establish a bank account at the top 10 banks or so, covering more than 80% of our transaction volume, and then move money between our own corporate accounts daily at a relatively low one-off cost, but settle customer transactions via the same bank close to free ledger transactions? That would be a sharply elbowed thing for a salaryman to do to his bank, but some salary men have been known to have elbows of varying sharpness. Extensions on the basic wallet model. So that describes the basic business of a wallet with cash management. Move money into the ecosystem at high cost to the wallet provider. Move it within the ecosystem at nearly zero cost to the wallet provider. Move it out of the ecosystem at very low costs. And charge customers primarily for each instance of moving money. After you've been doing this for a few years, your product teams will start to clamor that they have some very attractive ideas, which will make your wallet stickier with users, encourage your best customers to move more of their transactions to your wallet, and decrease your payment costs. They'll also sometimes make you incidental revenue. What's in your wallet? A new debit card. The first option is going to be making a debit card backed by the wallet balance, with a card issued by a partner bank that, in the U.S., is certain to be a Durban-exempt institution. This is an obvious no-brainer, your product team will tell you. Currently, when your users want to get money out of the ecosystem to, for example, their bank accounts, you pay money. Why not earn money instead? Get a co-branded debit card offering, and your banking partner will provide you a revenue share on every transaction out. How much is something of a trade secret, but if you were thinking somewhere in the 100 bips mark, you'll be close enough to interview for a product manager job at a fintech company. Cash App is, if you squint, a wallet. Block product managers would probably heavily dispute this characterization and say, truthfully, that the core user feels like they're using Cash App rather than using their linked Bank of America debit card when they're paying with Cash App. But economically, it looks an awful lot like a wallet. And Cashi App has, morally speaking, a debit card, currently described as a prepaid card, the distinction between which doubtlessly caused many, many meetings at Block and Sutton Bank, which Cash App users can use anywhere in the economy that doesn't take Cash App directly. Every time they do, Sutton Bank earns a swipe fee, a portion of which becomes Cash App transaction revenue, which you could read about in Block's annual report. You can reasonably assume these payments are a very large chunk of their, in 2023, $498 million in revenue in that segment. Monetizing payouts from wallets. But wait, there's more. Sometimes there's money inside your ecosystem that users need taken out in a hurry. Account in Cash App use case is texting your buddy to ask them to spot you $20, or asking your roommate to send you their fraction of the rent. You might need to very quickly convert those few hundred dollars into the kind of electronic money that doesn't get shout-outs and rap songs. Cash App will facilitate you doing this for 0.5% to 1.75% with a 25 cent minimum, depending on exactly what rails you need the money to go over. For example, if your landlord requires you to pay via Zelle or a check, you might want to fairly urgently send money to your account at Bank of America, which can do both Zell and checks. There are two ways to do this: via an ACH push payment to Bank of America, which would typically arrive in a few days, or via a quirky form of reversing a transaction that never really happened on your Bank of America debit card, which arrives almost instantly. If I were a betting man, I'd bet that Cash App charges 0.5% with a 25 cent minimum if they push over the cheaper ACH rails and 1.75% with the 25 cent minimum over the more expensive debit card rails. I tried to test this out with the $50 instant withdrawal, called an instant deposit by Cash App, and I'd love to be a fly-in-the-wall at that meeting, on an account connected to a Capital One debit card in a Chase checking account. Without asking me for further details or telling me how it would work out, Cash App quoted 88 cents, about 1.75%, sent it to Capital One, and delivered in an almost instant fashion as promised. I assume users with multiple bank accounts attached are in edge case, because I like to be an optimist, but in the long history of finance, some teams have been known to pick which of two options maximizes their own revenue. What's in your wallet? A new credit card. But wait, there's more.

Erik Torenberg

I think the acknowledgement of an ad read sounds cooler in Japanese.

Patrick McKenzie

Cool, right? So, picture this. You've finally recruited that engineer you've been eyeing for months. The interview feedback was unanimous, totally cracked. Their salary and equity grant were pricey, but worth it. You can't wait to get them to work. On filing expense reports? No, of course. You've never hired anyone just to have them do expense reports. But everyone you hire has to do expense reports because you're a grown-up company with stakeholders to satisfy. And perhaps you've even adopted one of the more modern expense report systems to be 50% less insultingly wasteful. Mercury, the banking provider I use for my own business, has an alternative: Mercury Spend. Your team's expense policies, approvals, limits, and reporting live in the same place with the rest of the business banking. So you spend less time asking an engineering lead to ask a senior engineer to fish out a SaaS invoice and more time actually doing things that matter. Have you ever really enjoyed a conversation with an accountant about expense substantiation? No, and the accountant didn't either. Just forward the SaaS receipt email to the usual alias, and Mercury spend will save humans from thinking about the rest. When my assistant last told me a Mercury debit card charge was declined, I was able to approve a temporary increase in the card's limits in less taps than it took me to text them to try again, please. I also love being able to spin up cards trivially for a person, project, or expense category. A $1,000 a week limit on software. I'm a sassy guy. And, like the rest of Mercury, it works regardless of whether you're a startup getting formal for the first time or a well-established company. Mercury has over 300,000 customers of all sizes. Fittingly, you don't need to talk to sales to liberate your team from expense report drudgery. Go to mercury.com to learn more and sign up in minutes. Mercury is a fintech company, not an FDIC insured bank. Banking services provided through Choice Financial Group and Column NA, Members FDIC. The I/O card is issued by Patriot Bank, NA, member FDIC, pursuant to a license from MasterCard International Incorporated. Meetings get a bum wrap. This meeting could have been an email. But sometimes it is really useful to get everyone in a room so there are no misunderstandings. So, do the notes for the meeting actually reflect what was decided in it? That is where Granola comes in. It is a modern notepad for meetings. You attend the meeting like you usually do, and Granola, running on your own device, securely transcribes it. You jot down notes as you usually do, and Granola enriches your version, tracking multiple speakers, the back and forth of the meeting, and final decisions. You can even chat with your notes, live or after the meeting. Why did this slip from Q3 again? Who is in charge of getting sign-off for marketing? Granola lets everyone be present in the meeting, rather than having one person sidelined by being a note-taker. It's your usual meetings, now with superpowers. Action items, actioned, owners, owned, synergies. Sorry, no amount of meetings will ever let me say synergies, unironically. If meetings are eating up your day, Granola is a no-brainer. You can try it totally free. Just head to granola.ai/slash complex systems. That's granola.ai/slash complex systems. To get your time back, try it for free at granola.ai/slash complex systems. Why only let your users spend the money they already have when you could get them to spend money they might not already have? You could have a co-branded credit card offering. You will not issue a credit card. No, no, no, no, no. Legal has explained multiple times at considerable length that regulators consider issuance of consumer credit to be an exclusive domain of the regulated financial sector. You will partner with a member of that august community, and they will issue cards, which will simply have your name on them. Why do you want to do this? One reason is it lets customers spend money which does not exist in your ecosystem, in your ecosystem. And instead of paying money to move money into your ecosystem, you will get paid coming and going. The user charges money to their card, which your co-branding partner will pay you a fee for, and then moves to some other business through you, earning you another fee. You are also highly likely to get another success fee for every card account you successfully open, possibly after some de minimis level of spending on it, which you might use to incentivize users opening cards. You might keep for yourself, or you might split to do both. See, for example, the Venmo card. Card issuers are getting more sophisticated in how they differentiate in offers, which possibly causes PayPal, Venmo's parent, to get more sophisticated in how they make offers, and so it is possible not all readers will see the same offer. But on my phone, Venmo is willing to pay me $200 if I apply in the next two weeks and spend $1,000 or so in the next six months. One could construct a range of per-account and usage-based payments, from Synchrony Bank to PayPal, which makes this immediately incentive-compatible for PayPal. As we've previously covered, it is not the case that it needs to be immediately incentive-compatible. The marketing operations of financial services companies are sophisticated and model customer acquisition costs over portfolios. And some accounts being negative-margin-contributive is not a problem if the portfolio is sufficiently positive. Now, a fun thing about Negotiating issuing relationships. Everyone and their dog will, at this point, say they have alternative data trademark with big data, trademark, levels of transaction history, which will allow the issuing bank to underwrite heavy users of the wallet better than they can their typical prospect. Spoiler. This won't actually end up mattering for credit decisions. FICO scores are unreasonably effective. Many, many, many teams have thought, I bet I can get better loss rates if I supplement FICO scores with another data source, and just about the only data sources for which that is actually true are illegal to use. You can improve on FICO if you add zip codes. And a junior data analyst who puts zip codes in a spreadsheet to make predictions will be told by compliance that they need to understand what redlining is if they ever hope to make senior data analysts. The big win on loss rates isn't that the additive data that the wallet has, it's in negotiated terms between the wallet provider and the card issuer. The card issuer is not interested in individual consumers' decisions to pay or skip out on debts. They are emotionally unaffected by a single instance of identity fraud. No, the issuer is attempting to buy a portfolio from the wallet provider. We'll negotiate about that portfolio. A fairly common term is: across all accounts we issue on the co-granded card, we model a certain loss percentage. Now we're going to construct a graph. If you slightly underperform that loss percentage, we're going to cut out payouts to you by a little bit. If you greatly underperform the loss percentage, we're going to cut them by more. And if you somehow have an absurdly fraudulent user base, which nonetheless makes it past our own underwriting, we will demand a payment from you. And indeed, if you read PayPal's 2023 10K, you will find many scintillating paragraphs like: Consumers that have outstanding loans and interest receivable due to our partner institution may experience hardships that result in losses recognized by the partner institution, which may result in a decrease in our revenue share earned in future periods. In the event that the overall return on the PayPal branded credit card programs funded by the partner institution do not meet a minimum rate of return, the minimum return threshold, in a particular quarter, our revenue share for that period would be zero. Further, in the event that overall return on the PayPal branded credit programs managed by the partner institution does not meet the minimum return threshold as measured over four consecutive quarters and in the following quarter, we will be required to make a payment to the partner institution subject to certain limitations. Through December 31st, 2023, their overall return on the PayPal branded credit programs funded by the partner institution exceeded the minimum return threshold. Translation. No worries, PayPal and their credit issuing partner financial institution are mutually happy with the performance of the portfolio. I'll say this an aside though, because I didn't highlight this as text in the essay. This is a relatively bloodless way to describe a loss-sharing agreement. PayPal is taking liability for credit losses incurred by the partner institution from the PayPal portfolio, and that's just described with many more words to the exact mechanics of it. I think that's a good bet in most circumstances, but it isn't a great bet in all circumstances. And from this insight drives many, many discussions internally and externally about credit issuing. Back to the essay. Put the wallet on the phone already. Many wallets exist these days as apps on your phone, but of course, phone makers have realized that the phone has replaced the leather wallet and considered the walletness of the phone to be as core a product feature as niche use cases like making phone calls. And so two very, very successful alts are Apple's wallet, which is more or less coextensive with Apple Pay. My apologies to some people in Cupertino who would argue that point. And whatever Google calls their wallet this week, and Samsung Pay. We've previously covered that one thing the payments industry charges business for is delivering high-spending customers who will use their plastic, etc., to spend more and spend more frequently. Apple speech to banks is essentially, okay, you might buy that many well-heeled users like their American Express card. That certainly sounds reasonable. Do they spend hours stroking their American Express card lovingly? Do they bring it out to gaze upon as they sit on the toilet? No. Okay, we think they care about our plastic and glass artifact much more than they care about Amex's plastic and glass artifact then. But good news, we can digitize your thing that users yawn about on the thing that they love. And then it will outcompete all the other payment methods because it is not in their wallet. It's in the palm of their hand basically all of their waking hours. This was pretty contentious, but banks agreed to pay Apple for the privilege of inclusion in this wallet. Partially, this was because Apple might have said something rhyming with, if you don't do this, we will find a two-sided payment network willing to do business with us. If we can't find them, we will build it, and people will use it because they like us more than they like you. Apple has been publicly reported to make 15 bips on each transaction, which goes over Apple Pay. Google reportedly doesn't make anything for intermediate transactions, which, if you believe it, might suggest something about the relative executional capabilities of Apple and Google on non-core products. That smells like an ads business. Many, many scaled internet firms have looked at the above economic models and decided to jump into the wallet business. The economics are extremely compelling. And they are additive to almost any business which already needs to move money around on behalf of users. This has occasioned some laughter with how they compete against each other. Imagine a store clerk helpfully asking you: How do you intend to pay today? Would you like to pay with ShopPay, Apple Pay, PayPal, Affirm, Amazon Pay, Klarna, Facebook Pay, or perhaps another option? You'll note that not all of those were wallets, but after you have a wallet and you have relationships with transacting businesses, it's very natural to add a checkout experience. Now, put on your consumer internet product manager hat. Here we have a number of different firms vying for the attention of a user, where their experience between those firms all lead to essentially the same outcome. The user bought the good or service for a price from the business. There might be a bit of user preference, but many users are highly persuadable. Do you know what a good consumer internet product manager will say at this point? This smells like an ads business. Do you have any idea how much money ads businesses make? It's absurd. Now, if you're a product manager who prioritizes the outcomes of the transacting businesses you represent, you might have a prioritization algorithm other than who paid me the most for placement. For example, if you are a business choosing your own ordering these providers, you might say, I really prefer to maximize net margin rather than simply maximizing the side payment. I'm in business to sell things to people for money, after all, and this checkout page is only incidental to that. I have a team of people who optimize my website to sell more things to more people for money. I should kick this question over to them. Surprising almost everyone, almost no business below the scale of the largest businesses in the world, and few enough of them, actually has a team of people who run experiments on their checkout flow to optimize for conversion rates. Percentage of people who successfully check out. This was dumb-striking to my colleagues at Stripe when I told them it. They went on to hear, oh, great idea, but those people don't exist. So, yeah, not going to work on it right now. Maybe next year, from some of the biggest names and capitalisms for many consecutive years. So, Stripe took advantage of rendering the checkout flow for very, very many customers in parallel and introduced dynamic optimization of presentation of payment methods, including wallets at checkout. This takes advantage of previous user preference in various geographies. So, for example, people transacting in America get prompted for cards like they probably expect, and people transacting in Japan see both cards, but also popular Japanese payment methods. The conversion rate impact is much larger than many people guessed prior to doing it. It was so large that Stripe built out tooling to let businesses fine-tune the availability of payment methods if they think they understand their customers better than the learning machines will guess at. Speaking of Stripe and wallets, I'd be hiding the ball a bit if I didn't mention that Stripe has a wallet adjacent offering called Link. Stripe describes it as a fast checkout solution. Let me reiterate that Stripe does not necessarily endorse what I say in my personal spaces. Most wallets are designed to make the wallet provider money via various revenue streams. No judgment here: building things that people love and charging indirectly for them is a legitimate way to earn a living. Link is designed to convert very, very well and to get network effects for businesses. You can see it in action if you're curious. I'll put a link in the show notes. But if you're a regular listener, you've probably already seen it just transacting on the internet. Link converts very well, and you'll understand why when you see how quick checkout is the second time you encounter it. A business can allow customers who start a checkout with them, sharing identifying information, like, for example, an email address or phone number, to quickly reuse payment credentials that they linked into previous transactions at that business or any other business using Link. Since that is a pretty sizable fraction of all businesses using Stripe, the user attempting to transact is highly likely to have a currently available payment method before that Link knows about, which allows them to reuse it without having to do anything barbaric like fish out a piece of plastic and redundantly type numbers on a telephone. A fun bit of ancient history. Once someone was visiting the Stripe Tokyo office shortly after I joined, I wanted to show off that I had figured out how to query an internal data store. And so I said, What's your over-under on the percentage of cards used this year that we had seen before? That number was pretty mind-boggling even in 2016 and an obviously good marketing point. I chuckle a bit every time I see it or one of its descendants quoted. I have left, but some descendant of that SQL query will probably keep getting run until it asymptotes near 100%. The number in the annual letter this year was 92%, by the way. Link is a product born out of a similar realization. If the user has typed in their card, et cetera, details once, and if they're okay with it, they should be allowed to redundantly type those details as infrequently as possible. This is an obvious user experience win. Businesses should like it too, to the extent it out-converts other ways of presenting checkout, which Stripe is, on their behalf, dynamically measuring all the time. Stripe likes it because improvements to conversion rate at the margin means Stripe gets to charge its fees on more transactions. Now, you can probably imagine another good business rationale. Stripe's two largest costs are A, smart people, and B, card interchange. One of these is fun to cut. Many customers have strong preferences about how they conduct transactions. They might For example, really like their credit card rewards. For those users, sure, let them do the thing they want to do. For other users who do not have strong preferences, perhaps because they are not in the socioeconomic strata that directly benefits from rewards programs, you can have businesses that are sensitive to the cost of interchange subsidize an incentive for typing a low-payment, low-cost payments credential into a mobile phone once. That business might have repeat custom with those users and recoup that incentive over lowering their payments costs on many, many transactions for months or years. Think, for example, a ride-sharing service. The core customer rides twice a day, every weekday, for arbitrarily long periods of time. And every time the business charges them, they pay the issuing bank again for making the acquaintance of that customer. If the ride-sharing business could convince the customer to pay with their bank account instead, that would be beneficial enough over the term of that relationship that the ride-sharing business could directly pay for that simple one-time action. Then, the next time that rider goes to check out at another business, if they have agreed to save that payment method to LINC, that business passively benefits from lower payment costs. In essence, it's a scaled renegotiation between businesses that ultimately pay for payments and providers of payment services. We understand the logic that we pay more for customers that really love you. If they really love you, great, you won their hearts and you will clearly continue to win their business. If, on the other hand, your customer perceives your service as commoditized, then we will buy payment services from a commodity provider of them. The price of payment services is a contentious topic between businesses and the businesses that operate payment rails. There have been substantial litigation about credit card interchange fees in the U.S., for example. We'll have to go into detail about it some other time. As one tiny piece of that, Walmart has opposed a settlement because Walmart explained to the judge that it has the economic heft to negotiate serially with, for example, the largest 20 banks in the U.S. on interchange and would do so if Visa and MasterCard got out of the way. I take no particular position on the merits, but most companies do not have nearly the scale of Walmart or the operational capacity to pick up the phone and do months-long bespoke negotiations with one bank, to say nothing of 20 of them. Walmart makes this point at length to the judge: they don't want the deal that most companies will get. But why shouldn't the internet get the deal the internet could negotiate if the internet were capable of negotiating on its own behalf? Stripe, as a side effect of a wallet-like product, enables a distributed techno-social renegotiation of payment costs on behalf of the internet. It's even aesthetically internet. It's not a single big bang negotiation ratified by a judge, but rather the aggregate of millions of individual, purely voluntary decisions interacting with each other. This brings a large number of small to huge businesses and their customers using them to a side of the table. And given that that side of the table represents something like a percent of global GDP, it might get listened to. So, I anticipate that Bitsabout Money will revisit the wallet business at a later date, but until then, thanks very much for listening to Complex Systems and see you next week.

Erik Torenberg

Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of Complex Systems. If you have comments, drop me an email or hit me up at Patty11 on Twitter. Ratings and reviews are the lifeblood of new podcasts for SEO reasons, and also because they let me know what you like.

Speaker names from our own diarization · position estimated from where the line sits in the episode
“But even if you look at your like retail checking account statement, the number that you believe is your balance is like not necessarily your balance. That is the rollup of a number of credit decisions that your bank has made on your behalf.” — Patrick McKenzie, Complex Systems with Patrick McKenzie (patio11)

McKenzie and Alex Elliott spend the episode on the plumbing between banks and brokers: who extends credit to whom, and what happens when a counterparty vanishes overnight. He arrives at the retail version almost in passing, as an aside about how far credit reaches down. The turns on either side are about prime brokers and the 2008 collapses, which is the scale at which this point is usually made.

Complex Systems with Patrick McKenzie (patio11) · 2026-08-20 Permalink → Listen →
Complex Systems with Patrick McKenzie (patio11) Around 55:45 into the episode
Patrick McKenzie

I like the example of how much business do we do with Fidelity, because something that might not be in people's muddle here is regardless of how trusted an institution is, there is maybe one institution that is exempt here, which is the United States federal government, because they can print dollars at will. But for everybody else, there is some level of business that you're willing to do with them and no higher. Because if they have the worst day possible and their firm goes down, we can't go down with them. It's extremely complicated at the level of globally significant financial institutions. Just to pick two names, not to pick on two firms. But it would take an extensive science project involving thousands of people probably the better part of a few years to completely figure out how many ways that Bank of America and Chase are tied at the hip. But there has to be an answer in some places. And there has to be an answer for, okay, if you are a credit card processor, how much business do you do with Visa every day? And that's a weird one. But you can imagine vice versa, Visa. Okay, there are many people on the Visa network and each of them have some limit that we are comfortable being exposed to, even though I'm hand-waving away a lot of compliance. I can

Alex Elliott

use a real example. So I worked at a prime broker and that comes in. So one of the functions of a prime broker is you might have a lot of small customers or customers at different, they could be large customers, but they just don't do a lot of flow, particularly, let's say, like crypto. So what you do as a prime broker is you go to an exchange and you say, hey, exchange, I'm going to have a session that's tied to me as the prime broker. And then I will be acting as a middleman for a lot of other customers that will flow through me. So A, I get the volume discount of coming of all these customers. I can give them a discount on basically going directly to the exchange. And, you know, you might be dealing with very small, unsophisticated market participants that are just a couple guys in a conference room somewhere in Florida, let's say, and they're like a little day trading shop. Or you might be dealing with different parts of a giant bank or corporation, but there's a US entity and a European entity, et cetera. And so it can be tricky to sometimes figure out, A, how much volume, to your point, even who to call. Like, do we call the Euro guy? Do we call the U.S. guy? Like, these are all real questions that pop up, particularly if there's an outage and you're like things are breaking and you need to call somebody. That person might not be at the firm anymore. So yeah, it's, yeah, it's, it's, it, to your point, you just assume it's all accounting, but then you realize there's a lot of fuzziness and you have to get to the right person and get them on the phone and they have to know how to handle it, et cetera.

Patrick McKenzie

And one of the functions of prime brokers is extending credit to people. Lots of trades happen on credit for a variety of reasons. One magnifies returns. Another reason is that basically like credit functions in many places as sort of like lubricant in the economy, where if we were doing everything cash and curry, if there was no credit extended between firms, there just simply isn't enough money to be at the various places. And that would generally have the effect of like raising the cost of capital to various firms, slow things down generally, et cetera, et cetera. It is broadly underappreciated by people. But even if you look at your like retail checking account statement, the number that you believe is your balance is like not necessarily your balance. That is the rollup of a number of credit decisions that your bank has made on your behalf. And there are other people that are making credit decisions vis-a-vis your bank, et cetera, et cetera. And so your quote-unquote settled balance is like a probabilistic statement about what we believe about millions of transactions at this exact moment in time. Be that as it may. At some point, like somebody at a prime broker has to say, you know, a couple of years ago when we got into this relationship, we were happy to have them. And for every day since, we've been happy to have them. And I'm not sure I'm happy to have them tomorrow. Or like previously, you know, we had extended this particular client a credit line of up to make up a number of $3 billion. And maybe they're still good for $2 billion of that, but I don't really want to lose the last billion. Maybe we have to have a communication with them. I'm like, okay, well, if you own $3 billion of assets, maybe own less very quickly. Or there's often an ORL. Involved in those. Do you want to talk just very briefly on what is the or else?

Alex Elliott

Yeah, it's well, sometimes there's just giant events. So, for example, in 2008, like Lehman just disappeared one day, or Bear Stearns just disappeared one day. And you had all of these interactions, like you were mentioning before about being tied to the hip. You don't even know who to call. Like, you call the number and no one answers, right? They've shut the office down, and now you have these giant positions you have to deal with. I'm not as familiar with some of the like the lending, like the pure prime brokerage around, okay, this person is like now we don't think of them as a good customer, but there are definitely amounts of order flow that you'll take from certain people. Sometimes it's not a credit, it can be also this is very smart flow or very dumb flow. We're like, we don't want to take the smart flow. We'd rather take what's the dumb flow. Some people might say sharp and not sharp. So it is definitely a thing that relationships can get cut off quickly and they can get cut off for different reasons, et cetera. So yeah, definitely a thing there.

Patrick McKenzie

The classic example on flow is payment for order flow where retail orders, people transacting their accounts at Schwab or Robinhood, are almost definitionally not hedge funds. And so it is extremely unlikely that they have material market moving information. And so they're transacting because my daughter is going off to college or this is the day that my 401k gets the transfer from work and then I immediately buy or et cetera, et cetera. And so if you knew you were just dealing with noise traders, with people who didn't have a point of view on the true value of a security or who had no better point of view on it than the market does, you would be able to quote them very generous prices. And to the extent like your non-informed flow is mixed in with people who are quite informed flow, well, you have to be a little careful about what prices you quote them. And then if it is Goldman Sachs online too, you should be very careful about what prices you give to Goldman because as one great line of dialogue from the Big Short movie, this is Goldman Sachs. If you offer us money, we're going to take it. And it's to pull it against their interest there, but broadly, a good rule. Yeah, there are layers upon layers of this. I feel like we could discuss war stories for a very long time, but one thing I want to just emphasize for people is this is intellectually interesting and keeping the world running. And there are fun challenges every day. And I'm glad that you came on to share some of those fun challenges. So where can people follow me on the internet if they want to read about stories in the future?

Alex Elliott

Sure. So I'm very active on Twitter. My user account is AlexPotato. I have a whole bunch of threads about all kinds of different topics. There's a large portion of that is about finance or technology. If folks are interested in what it's like being technologists in finance, there's a couple there. My website is alexpotato.com. Also have some book recommendations and my own podcast is there as well. So yeah, this was great.

Speaker names from our own diarization · position estimated from where the line sits in the episode

Collections They Appear In